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Wallace108

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PostSubject: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 9:44 am

(CBS News) CBS News has learned that the NCAA will announce what a high-ranking association source called "unprecedented" penalties against both the Penn State University football team and the school.

"I've never seen anything like it," the source told correspondent Armen Keteyian.

NCAA President Mark Emmert will make the announcement Monday morning at 9 a.m. at the organization's headquarters in Indianapolis.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-57477382/ncaa-source-unprecedented-penalties-against-penn-state/?tag=stack
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I hate the NCAA. What's the point in punishing players and coaches who had absolutely nothing to do with what happened? What's the point in punishing the entire school? Sandusky has been punished. Paterno has been punished (legacy destroyed), those who knew what was happening will soon be punished. Isn't that justice? I just don't understand the point of punishing people who weren't involved. That would be like sending Sandusky's entire family to prison for life because, well, they're related to him and we need to make ourselves feel better.

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 11:40 am

@Wallace108 wrote:

I hate the NCAA. What's the point in punishing players and coaches who had absolutely nothing to do with what happened? What's the point in punishing the entire school? Sandusky has been punished. Paterno has been punished (legacy destroyed), those who knew what was happening will soon be punished. Isn't that justice? I just don't understand the point of punishing people who weren't involved. That would be like sending Sandusky's entire family to prison for life because, well, they're related to him and we need to make ourselves feel better.


I think the problem is that we may never know exactly how deep this went. It seems like most of the top-ranking officials at the university were involved in some fashion at looking the other way or outright covering it up.

Would it be any different with any other school that gets penalized heavily for the actions of a few? It's a tough break for those that had nothing to do with it, but you could equate it with a large company that gets shut down for illegal activity that most of it's employees knew nothing about. They will suffer by losing their livelihoods through no fault of their own. It's not fair to them, but that doesn't mean the company should be allowed to continue to operate. At least most of the kids that could have a real future in athletics may be able to transfer elsewhere if they so choose.

I do feel bad for all of the innocents harmed in this case. Not only the children who were directly harmed, but the people who will become collateral damage from the scandal and lose opportunities that Penn State could have afforded them. It's a damn shame it's come to this, but I can't say it isn't the right thing to do.

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JonM229

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 9:29 pm

I think the NCAA sanctions will be the least of Penn State's worries when the Department of Education comes down on them with the Clery Act.

I'm going to side with Buddha on this one. It's no different than innocent student/athletes being punished by shady dealings surrounding recruitment, only this is much more serious. The football coach, Athletic Director, Vice President, and President of the university all actively engaged in covering up for Jerry Sandusky.

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Wallace108: Jon, how the hell do you expect any of us to ever follow your posts? You always set the bar awfully high.  "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State 1664291743

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Wallace108

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 10:23 pm

I understand what you guys are saying, and I don't completely disagree. It's a tough situation. I just look at it like the Ohio State situation ... the players who were involved in the memorabilia scandal (and coach Tressel, who knew about it) are all gone. Innocent players and new coaches (who had absolutely nothing to do with the scandal) are the ones being punished by the sanctions. Punish the people involved, but don't punish people who had absolutely nothing to do with it.

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JonM229

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 11:08 pm

While Penn State didn't violate any NCAA rules, how would the NCAA be able to levy sancitons against any other school if they didn't punish Penn State for this?

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Wallace108: Jon, how the hell do you expect any of us to ever follow your posts? You always set the bar awfully high.  "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State 1664291743

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Wallace108

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 11:43 pm

@JonM229 wrote:
While Penn State didn't violate any NCAA rules, how would the NCAA be able to levy sancitons against any other school if they didn't punish Penn State for this?
That's not an easy question to answer. I just believe that the punishment should fit the crime. What crime did the new coach commit? What crime did any of the players commit? Sandusky and those who knew what was happening are being punished beyond the NCAA's reach. Anything the NCAA does won't affect any of them. All the NCAA is going to do is punish people who are completely innocent.

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 4:15 am

@Wallace108 wrote:
@JonM229 wrote:
While Penn State didn't violate any NCAA rules, how would the NCAA be able to levy sancitons against any other school if they didn't punish Penn State for this?
That's not an easy question to answer. I just believe that the punishment should fit the crime. What crime did the new coach commit? What crime did any of the players commit? Sandusky and those who knew what was happening are being punished beyond the NCAA's reach. Anything the NCAA does won't affect any of them. All the NCAA is going to do is punish people who are completely innocent.

So there should never be any sanctions/penalties against a school unless every last member of that university (administration, faculty, employees, and student body) was involved in the scandal/violations in your eyes? There has to be repercussions for the program as well as a further deterrent, otherwise people will always just do as they please. If they think there is more at stake than just themselves, they are less likely to commit these violations or break laws. I know that won't be the case with everyone, but I think it lessens the likelihood.

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 9:16 am

Here's the list of sanctions:

$60 million dollars in sanctions to be donated to nationwide support services for abuse victims (worth one year's revenue from the football program)
4-year bowl ban
Loss of 10 scholarships per year for 4 years
5-year probation
Additional sanctions on individuals facing criminal proceedings to be handed out after the trials

Any incoming or current football player may transfer and be eligible immediately
Any football player wishing to stay at Penn State may retain their scholarship

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Wallace108: Jon, how the hell do you expect any of us to ever follow your posts? You always set the bar awfully high.  "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State 1664291743

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 9:33 am

@JonM229 wrote:
Here's the list of sanctions:

$60 million dollars in sanctions to be donated to nationwide support services for abuse victims (worth one year's revenue from the football program)
4-year bowl ban
Loss of 10 scholarships per year for 4 years
5-year probation
Additional sanctions on individuals facing criminal proceedings to be handed out after the trials

Any incoming or current football player may transfer and be eligible immediately
Any football player wishing to stay at Penn State may retain their scholarship

Wow. PSU's program is definitely going to get decimated. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few top key players as well as incoming players request that transfer.

As much as I'd like to see PSU succeed in the coming seasons, it's just not in me knowing what terrible things were being done, and hidden (all for an image).

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 9:45 am

I totally forgot a pretty big sanction:

All wins between 1998-2011 must be vacated.


So this essentially makes Bobby Bowden the winningest coach in Division I NCAA history. Paterno drops to 12th overall.

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Wallace108: Jon, how the hell do you expect any of us to ever follow your posts? You always set the bar awfully high.  "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State 1664291743

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 10:46 am

@JonM229 wrote:
I totally forgot a pretty big sanction:

All wins between 1998-2011 must be vacated.


So this essentially makes Bobby Bowden the winningest coach in Division I NCAA history. Paterno drops to 12th overall.

This is REALLY REALLY dumb. I get them wanting to attack Paterno's legacy and not let him be the #1 winningest coach but what about all the players that played those games. JoePa's legacy is already tarnished, no need to take the wins away. That, to me, was excessive.

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 10:53 am

Whyant5 wrote:
This is REALLY REALLY dumb. I get them wanting to attack Paterno's legacy and not let him be the #1 winningest coach but what about all the players that played those games. JoePa's legacy is already tarnished, no need to take the wins away. That, to me, was excessive.[/font]
Yeah, I totally agree. What Sandusky did didn't give the team a competitive edge on the field. Taking away wins is unnecessary.

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 10:58 am

I guess Penn State was right to take the statue down, since it was erected to celebrate Paterno breaking the record

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Wallace108: Jon, how the hell do you expect any of us to ever follow your posts? You always set the bar awfully high.  "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State 1664291743

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Wallace108

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 11:07 am

@Buddha Bus wrote:
So there should never be any sanctions/penalties against a school unless every last member of that university (administration, faculty, employees, and student body) was involved in the scandal/violations in your eyes? There has to be repercussions for the program as well as a further deterrent, otherwise people will always just do as they please. If they think there is more at stake than just themselves, they are less likely to commit these violations or break laws. I know that won't be the case with everyone, but I think it lessens the likelihood.
I believe in punishing a program if the entire program is corrupt and doing things to get a competitive advantage. But why punish an entire program for the actions of a few, and in cases where the actions didn't have anything to do with the play on the field?

Looking at the OSU case again, the team is now under NCAA sanctions and not eligible for a bowl game this year. All that's doing is punishing the kids and coaches who had nothing to do with it. Here's who was involved and where they are now:

Terrell Pryor ... Raiders
Dan Herron ... Bengals
Mike Adams ... Steelers
DeVier Posey ... Texans
Jim Tressel ... Was hired by the Colts but now works for the University of Akron

While the players involved in the scandal, as well as Tressel, were suspended by the NCAA, they're all gone. Tressel got a good job and the players are all in the NFL. So the ones being punished are the current coaches, players, and fans. And the school is losing a lot of money from being banned from bowl games. Other than Tressel and the players, no one else at the school had any idea what was going on. So why should everyone else be punished?

And I feel the same way about Penn State. Sandusky and those who knew are being punished severely. There's no need for the NCAA to come in and punish coaches, players, and fans who had nothing to do with it. And I don't think we need NCAA sanctions to deter coaches from raping boys in showers. For someone who would do something like that, I don't think the fear of becoming bowl ineligible or losing a few scholarships is going to deter them.

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 11:18 am

Although I will say I thought the NCAA was going to come down harder on them. I was expecting the death penalty.

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 11:55 am

Basically, we have learned how to sabotage a university's football program: Get a job there, encourage the kids to violate the rules, and then leave. You will face no consequences and the school will suffer the damage. Brilliant!
"Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State Guinness-brilliant

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 12:19 pm

Sarcastic but relevant Tweet by Trib writer Mark Kaboly:

Quote :
And who exactly is going to punish the NCAA for allowing this to happen under their watch?

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 12:25 pm

Whyant5 wrote:
Basically, we have learned how to sabotage a university's football program: Get a job there, encourage the kids to violate the rules, and then leave. You will face no consequences and the school will suffer the damage. Brilliant!
"Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State Guinness-brilliant

First, IMO, there was no way PSU was going to go through this unscaved. I think there would have been a greater outrage. Unfortunately, the players now have to pay for the sins of the coaches and school officials who opted to do nothing.

Second, I believe that had JoePa been left as coach, that he would have faced consequences as would any coach. Unfortunately his death, left no one else to take on the responsibility (other than the school offiicals who did nothing). It's a sad state of affairs, but at least the athletes have an opportunity to transfer if they desire and be eligible to play immediately.

Finally, I believe the punishment had to be harsh. While these guys may not have known about Sandusky, this isn't the first time the program has been under scrutiny and it wasn't the first time JoePa mentioned protecting the image of the school. It makes me wonder, what else has the athletic department and/or school covered up?

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 12:29 pm

@stlrtruck wrote:
it wasn't the first time JoePa mentioned protecting the image of the school.

What school, or any business for that matter, isn't interested in protecting its image? As Agassi used to say ... image is everything.

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 12:56 pm

@Wallace108 wrote:
@stlrtruck wrote:
it wasn't the first time JoePa mentioned protecting the image of the school.

What school, or any business for that matter, isn't interested in protecting its image? As Agassi used to say ... image is everything.

Protecting the image at the expense of someone else's innocence. Image is everything, but it never helps your image when you have to hide and protect evil. PSU's image is destroyed (for now), and when they come off probation the first thing that's going to be mentioned is the sanctions and how they got there! The wound may heal, but the scar will be there for a very, very long time.

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 2:21 pm

@stlrtruck wrote:
@Wallace108 wrote:
@stlrtruck wrote:
it wasn't the first time JoePa mentioned protecting the image of the school.

What school, or any business for that matter, isn't interested in protecting its image? As Agassi used to say ... image is everything.

Protecting the image at the expense of someone else's innocence. Image is everything, but it never helps your image when you have to hide and protect evil. PSU's image is destroyed (for now), and when they come off probation the first thing that's going to be mentioned is the sanctions and how they got there! The wound may heal, but the scar will be there for a very, very long time.
I'm certainly not suggesting that protecting an image at all costs is right. I'm just saying that it isn't exclusive to Joe Paterno and Penn State.

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 2:56 pm

@Wallace108 wrote:
@stlrtruck wrote:
@Wallace108 wrote:
@stlrtruck wrote:
it wasn't the first time JoePa mentioned protecting the image of the school.

What school, or any business for that matter, isn't interested in protecting its image? As Agassi used to say ... image is everything.

Protecting the image at the expense of someone else's innocence. Image is everything, but it never helps your image when you have to hide and protect evil. PSU's image is destroyed (for now), and when they come off probation the first thing that's going to be mentioned is the sanctions and how they got there! The wound may heal, but the scar will be there for a very, very long time.
I'm certainly not suggesting that protecting an image at all costs is right. I'm just saying that it isn't exclusive to Joe Paterno and Penn State.

No but Joe Paterno was played up to be this man with a level of integrity above all others. Making the fall mightier.

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 3:25 pm

@stlrtruck wrote:
No but Joe Paterno was played up to be this man with a level of integrity above all others. Making the fall mightier.

Good point.

I'm going to try to come at this discussion from a different angle when I have more time. I don't think it's as black and white as it's being made out to be. (Not from anyone here .... just in general).

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 4:12 pm

@Wallace108 wrote:
@stlrtruck wrote:
No but Joe Paterno was played up to be this man with a level of integrity above all others. Making the fall mightier.

Good point.

I'm going to try to come at this discussion from a different angle when I have more time. I don't think it's as black and white as it's being made out to be. (Not from anyone here .... just in general).

I would agree with you. Just seems like there is something else missing. Almost as if someone else higher on the COC than JoePa is just as equally if not more so negiligent and is allowing JoePa to take the fall (most likely because he's dead and they feel it will all stay dead with him - but as we all know, eventually it all comes out).

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PostSubject: Re: "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State   "Unprecedented" penalties against Penn State EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 4:23 pm

@Wallace108 wrote:
@Buddha Bus wrote:
So there should never be any sanctions/penalties against a school unless every last member of that university (administration, faculty, employees, and student body) was involved in the scandal/violations in your eyes? There has to be repercussions for the program as well as a further deterrent, otherwise people will always just do as they please. If they think there is more at stake than just themselves, they are less likely to commit these violations or break laws. I know that won't be the case with everyone, but I think it lessens the likelihood.
I believe in punishing a program if the entire program is corrupt and doing things to get a competitive advantage. But why punish an entire program for the actions of a few, and in cases where the actions didn't have anything to do with the play on the field?

Looking at the OSU case again, the team is now under NCAA sanctions and not eligible for a bowl game this year. All that's doing is punishing the kids and coaches who had nothing to do with it. Here's who was involved and where they are now:

Terrell Pryor ... Raiders
Dan Herron ... Bengals
Mike Adams ... Steelers
DeVier Posey ... Texans
Jim Tressel ... Was hired by the Colts but now works for the University of Akron

While the players involved in the scandal, as well as Tressel, were suspended by the NCAA, they're all gone. Tressel got a good job and the players are all in the NFL. So the ones being punished are the current coaches, players, and fans. And the school is losing a lot of money from being banned from bowl games. Other than Tressel and the players, no one else at the school had any idea what was going on. So why should everyone else be punished?

And I feel the same way about Penn State. Sandusky and those who knew are being punished severely. There's no need for the NCAA to come in and punish coaches, players, and fans who had nothing to do with it. And I don't think we need NCAA sanctions to deter coaches from raping boys in showers. For someone who would do something like that, I don't think the fear of becoming bowl ineligible or losing a few scholarships is going to deter them.


I agree that it sucks when a school is punished for improprieties when the perpetrators leave and get away scott free. There needs to be a way where this can't happen. Reggie Bush was another glaring example of someone who caused a school to be heavily scrutinized and sanctioned while he rode off into the NFL sunset and was rewarded with a large payday. I feel there should be some agreement between college athletics and professional sports leagues that if a student is caught violating the rules they should be punished by the professional league if they leave before atoning for those violations in some form.

They could render them draft ineligible, ban them for a year or more from entering the league/sport, or fine them monetarily or a combination of these or other punishments so they can't get away unscathed. It isn't fair to everyone else left behind to suffer who had nothing to do with it if a player involved in a scandal or violation has no repercussions when they were the cause of it. That said, it is the university's responsibility to remain vigilant and know that their student athletes are following the rules set out. They should also be punished in the event that they were unable to prevent these incidents.

Much like a company that employs someone that violates an industry standard or completely disregards a certain regulation that causes legal action against them, the company as a whole will suffer consequences even if the majority knew nothing or had no involvement in the misconduct. Innocents suffer in that scenario as well, but it's a necessary evil.

Same with Penn State. Even more so with this scandal, the cover-up went to the top leaders of the university. Why wouldn't you punish the entire program when it reached the highest levels and virtually nothing was done? Worse yet, it was swept under the rug to protect the image of the school. Further exacerbating the anger over it is the fact that Penn State has long touted an image of doing things the right way and of moral and educational excellence that has now been obliterated, tarnished, and rendered hollow.

We agree on the fact that the guilty parties should minimally be severely punished for their culpability. I just don't agree that the school should be left to operate business as usual, especially considering the heinous nature of the crimes that were ignored and the unfathomable things that were allowed to continue at the hands of that monster Sandusky for over a decade more because the leaders of that university and football program were more worried about their image than the abuse of innocent children. Ten million times worse than some stupid tattoos for jerseys scandal. No

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