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 Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?

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Stella Nation

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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:01 am

Somehow I hope they are trying to get Kam Chancellor. He's still holding out and you never know the Seahawks are interested in a trade.
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El-Gonzo Jackson

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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:48 am

@Stella Nation wrote:
Somehow I hope they are trying to get Kam Chancellor. He's still holding out and you never know the Seahawks are interested in a trade.

And to think the Steelers took Thaddeus Gibson in the 4th when Chancellor was there in 2010. Guess they thought they had enough safety depth in 2010.

I remember I was pimping Kurt Coleman in the 5th, but we could have had him in the 7th.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:18 pm

@PhantomJB93 wrote:
@Hawaii 5-0 wrote:
@PhantomJB93 wrote:
They TRADED for a good corner. TRADED.  That never freaking happens in the NFL let alone with the Steelers. And drafted one in the second round, after all the first rounders were gone at their pick.  

They're trying.  The secondary still sucks but it's not being ignored anymore.

yes, the Steelers finally realized they needed to do something about their terrible secondary they had neglected for so long.

let's take a look at the Steelers' five previous draft classes and you tell me if the secondary was a priority:

2014 - Rd 5 Shaquille Richardson CB

2013 - Rd 4 Shamarko Thomas SS
         Rd 5 Terry Hawthorne CB

2012 - Rd 7 Terrence Frederick CB

2011 - Rd 3 Curtis Brown CB
         Rd 4 Cortez Allen CB

2010 - Rd 5 Crezdon Butler CB

I'm actually really not sure what point you were trying to get across.  It sounds like you were being sarcastic and trying to say they've been addressing it, but spending 1 pick before the 4th round in 5 drafts is in no way addressing the problem. It doesn't matter how many of them you put into the secondary, you can't expect guys from the 4th round onward to become anything more than solid backup and ST players.

If I misread that and you were trying to point out how little they've addressed it, then I agree.

I wasn't being sarcastic, my post was to illustrate how they have neglected the position until this past draft and we're seeing the unfortunate results.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:03 pm

@Fire Arians wrote:
2nd round pick - CB
4th round pick - CB
7th round pick - S
FA pickup - CB

I think they're trying, but like anything you don't always see results immediately after. It's not fair to say they're not attempting to address the issue.

but it's fair to say they neglected the secondary for way too long previously...
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:39 pm

@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
@Stella Nation wrote:
Somehow I hope they are trying to get Kam Chancellor. He's still holding out and you never know the Seahawks are interested in a trade.

And to think the Steelers took Thaddeus Gibson in the 4th when Chancellor was there in 2010.  Guess they thought they had enough safety depth in 2010.

I remember I was pimping Kurt Coleman in the 5th, but we could have had him in the 7th.

Good God, I still get triggered at the mention of Thaddeus Gibson. The endless arguments at SF over Gibson vs. Worilds/Lee took a toll on me. So idiotic.

And I would do horrifying, unmentionable things for the Steelers to bring in Chancellor. But the Steelers will never consider trading for him and honestly I don't think the Seahawks are going to consider moving him either.

@Hawaii 5-0 wrote:
@PhantomJB93 wrote:
@Hawaii 5-0 wrote:
@PhantomJB93 wrote:
They TRADED for a good corner. TRADED.  That never freaking happens in the NFL let alone with the Steelers. And drafted one in the second round, after all the first rounders were gone at their pick.  

They're trying.  The secondary still sucks but it's not being ignored anymore.

yes, the Steelers finally realized they needed to do something about their terrible secondary they had neglected for so long.

let's take a look at the Steelers' five previous draft classes and you tell me if the secondary was a priority:

2014 - Rd 5 Shaquille Richardson CB

2013 - Rd 4 Shamarko Thomas SS
         Rd 5 Terry Hawthorne CB

2012 - Rd 7 Terrence Frederick CB

2011 - Rd 3 Curtis Brown CB
         Rd 4 Cortez Allen CB

2010 - Rd 5 Crezdon Butler CB

I'm actually really not sure what point you were trying to get across.  It sounds like you were being sarcastic and trying to say they've been addressing it, but spending 1 pick before the 4th round in 5 drafts is in no way addressing the problem. It doesn't matter how many of them you put into the secondary, you can't expect guys from the 4th round onward to become anything more than solid backup and ST players.

If I misread that and you were trying to point out how little they've addressed it, then I agree.

I wasn't being sarcastic, my post was to illustrate how they have neglected the position until this past draft and we're seeing the unfortunate results.

Okay, good. Glad we're on the same page. Wish they'd invested more in the position. Particularly at safety, I know everyone has clamored for a CB over the years but we've actually found some decent guys there off the streets. Both safety positions have seemed pretty lackluster for a while now.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:24 am

We won the division last year with a mediocre secondary. While defense is still a huge part of the game, the league is becoming more offense oriented with every passing season. We have the offense to hang around with any team in a shoot out. We're just not used to seeing the Steelers play this kind of football.

That being said, the defense is a big question mark this year. If they can be better than they were last year, then it would definitely help the team and take a lot of pressure off of the offense feeling like they have to put games solely on their shoulders. Defense is still very important though, without a doubt. It'll be interesting to see what the defense does come the start of the regular season when it's not all the vanilla defensive packages out on the field.

The most worrying thing about the defense overall to me is the pass rush, not the secondary. I know we're not seeing the exotic blitz packages and schemes just yet, but outside of the Packers game this preseason the pass rush has been almost non-existent. If we can generate a consistent pass rush this season, that will take a lot of pressure off of a secondary that I think gets a lot of unfair criticism. Quarterbacks are going to pick you apart when they have all day to stand in the pocket, progress through their reads, and the receivers have all the time in the world to get themselves open. Case in point... the Buffalo game. Manuel, Taylor, Cassel, and Simms all looked like world class quarterbacks because their was no pressure in their faces. Manuel is known for making boneheaded mistakes under pressure, Matt Cassel is a game manager, Tyrod Taylor is a back-up in my opinion, and Simms is a bottom of the barrel 3rd Stringer. While I think a guy like EJ Manuel can be a quality starter once he matures a little bit, guys like Cassel and Taylor shouldn't be striking fear into the hearts of opposing defenses. Yet we managed to make them all look like future Hall of Famers this past weekend. Even for a preseason game, the total lack of a pass rush was very worrying.

Ultimately though even the best secondary players would suffer with a lack of a pass rush. The defensive success this season hinges a lot on whether or not our guys can get to the quarterback. If they can't do it consistently, it's going to be on the offense to produce at their highest level game-in, and game-out. Jarvis Jones is past due in stepping up to the plate and producing. It's maddening watching him get handled by 2nd and 3rd string players in preseason games. He hasn't lived up to his billing, and he's had plenty of time to learn and he's got one of the best the game's seen in James Harrison mentoring him. Our young guys have to step up to the plate for our defense to be a threat in 2015.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:11 pm

Alex Kozora ‏@Alex_Kozora

Steelers DBs drafted Day 3 since '12

Doran Grant
Shaquille Richardson
Terry Hawthorne
Terence Frederick
Gerod Holliman

None made the team

Steelers claimed they added 29 INTs after draft. None of those players will be on the team this year.

Like I said a couple days ago. Steelers are awesome at evaluating WRs. But equally bad at evaluating the guys covering them.


https://twitter.com/Alex_Kozora
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:23 pm

@Hawaii 5-0 wrote:
Alex Kozora ‏@Alex_Kozora  

Steelers DBs drafted Day 3 since '12

Doran Grant
Shaquille Richardson
Terry Hawthorne
Terence Frederick
Gerod Holliman

None made the team

Steelers claimed they added 29 INTs after draft. None of those players will be on the team this year.

Like I said a couple days ago. Steelers are awesome at evaluating WRs. But equally bad at evaluating the guys covering them.


affraid

Sometimes numbers can lie, but these don't.
Questionable Cortez and Blake.
Throw in the Shark benching.
This is looking bad.


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El-Gonzo Jackson

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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:38 pm

Doran Grant is going to be a good player in the league, I hope we can get him on the practice squad.

Holiman was a one year player with below average speed, below average tackling ability and intercepted Tyler Murphy 4 times in 1 game to pad his stats. Never expected him to make the 53.

Jarvis Jones thinks Shamarko hasn't done anything in his 3 years and was a reach in the draft.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:34 pm

@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
Doran Grant is going to be a good player in the league, I hope we can get him on the practice squad.  

The way the Steelers luck has been going this preseason they will lose the gamble on releasing Grant when someone picks up Grant on waivers

Another domino falls as the Steelers keep working around injuries and suspensions - the next good news about the Steelers will be the first good news since training camp started
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:45 pm

@Atlanta Dan wrote:
@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
Doran Grant is going to be a good player in the league, I hope we can get him on the practice squad.  

The way the Steelers luck has been going this preseason they will lose the gamble on releasing Grant when someone picks up Grant on waivers

Another domino falls as the Steelers keep working around injuries and suspensions - the next good news about the Steelers will be the first good news since training camp started

In a way the acquisition of Boykin was good news.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:49 pm

@ImperialFan wrote:
In a way the acquisition of Boykin was good news.

True that - although my bet is they would not have obtained Boykin if Golson had been healthy, at least they were able to get him

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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:09 pm

@Atlanta Dan wrote:
@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
Doran Grant is going to be a good player in the league, I hope we can get him on the practice squad.  

The way the Steelers luck has been going this preseason they will lose the gamble on releasing Grant when someone picks up Grant on waivers

Another domino falls as the Steelers keep working around injuries and suspensions - the next good news about the Steelers will be the first good news since training camp started

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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:10 pm

@Atlanta Dan wrote:
@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
Doran Grant is going to be a good player in the league, I hope we can get him on the practice squad.  

The way the Steelers luck has been going this preseason they will lose the gamble on releasing Grant when someone picks up Grant on waivers

Another domino falls as the Steelers keep working around injuries and suspensions - the next good news about the Steelers will be the first good news since training camp started
this has been a dreadful preseason. We wanted to get punter Jordan berry experience holding for kicks and couldn't even do that.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:30 pm

@ImperialFan wrote:
@Atlanta Dan wrote:
@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
Doran Grant is going to be a good player in the league, I hope we can get him on the practice squad.  

The way the Steelers luck has been going this preseason they will lose the gamble on releasing Grant when someone picks up Grant on waivers

Another domino falls as the Steelers keep working around injuries and suspensions - the next good news about the Steelers will be the first good news since training camp started

In a way the acquisition of Boykin was good news.

When Boykin gets an extension and Cortez Allen plays like his paid, everything will be fine. I'm just concerned that Mike Mitchell is going to be exposed as a pretender this year (or blame another injury) and we pushed 12 year vet Troy Polamalu to the curb so we can play 12 year vet Will Allen in his place.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:15 pm

@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
@ImperialFan wrote:
@Atlanta Dan wrote:
@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
Doran Grant is going to be a good player in the league, I hope we can get him on the practice squad.  

The way the Steelers luck has been going this preseason they will lose the gamble on releasing Grant when someone picks up Grant on waivers

Another domino falls as the Steelers keep working around injuries and suspensions - the next good news about the Steelers will be the first good news since training camp started

In a way the acquisition of Boykin was good news.

When Boykin gets an extension and Cortez Allen plays like his paid, everything will be fine.  I'm just concerned that Mike Mitchell is going to be exposed as a pretender this year (or blame another injury) and we pushed 12 year vet Troy Polamalu to the curb so we can play 12 year vet Will Allen in his place.  
I remember at the other place it became very popular to bash Dick LeBeau and Mike Tomlin and even suggest they should be fired, for not playing shamarko Thomas in place of Polamalu 1 & 2 years ago. It was my belief that shaMarco might not have what it takes upstairs yet and that Troy was an asset to the team rather than a liability.

Then came all the "stunted growth" nonsense.

Like I said then if Thomas was as good as advertised he would have taken that job from Troy one or two years ago.

Looks like me, LeBeau, and Tomlin weren't idiots after all.

I chalk this up as a case of "whatch what you ask for".

It might even be possible that an old and retired Polamalu and Ryan Clark could still be an upgrade. Probably not but its not too far fetched to say.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:25 pm

I am disappointed Shamarko looks like he is not starter quality (Thomas getting all those minutes Thursday night now appears to be a last chance to show the coaches he should start), but it was time for Troy to call it a career - Troy could no longer cover anyone and about all he shared with prime Polamalu from 2004 - 2010 was
that both players wore #43

Troy is one of the all time greats but nothing lasts forever
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:19 pm

@Atlanta Dan wrote:
I am disappointed Shamarko looks like he is not starter quality (Thomas getting all those minutes Thursday night now appears to be a last chance to show the coaches he should start), but it was time for Troy to call it a career - Troy could no longer cover anyone and about all he shared with prime Polamalu from 2004 -  2010 was
that both players wore #43

Troy is one of the all time greats but nothing lasts forever
true. It was more of an indictment of shamarko Thomas then it was an endorsement of Troy. James Harrison still has it. Troy doesn't.

I think I will always be sad that troys very long and succesful career seemed way too short.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:59 pm

@tony hipchest wrote:
@Atlanta Dan wrote:
I am disappointed Shamarko looks like he is not starter quality (Thomas getting all those minutes Thursday night now appears to be a last chance to show the coaches he should start), but it was time for Troy to call it a career - Troy could no longer cover anyone and about all he shared with prime Polamalu from 2004 -  2010 was
that both players wore #43

Troy is one of the all time greats but nothing lasts forever
true. It was more of an indictment of shamarko Thomas then it was an endorsement of Troy. James Harrison still has it. Troy doesn't.

I think I will always be sad that troys very long and succesful career seemed way too short.

polamalu was ridiculously great back in like 2006-2007 I remember watching and out of no where comes Troy with his hair flailing behind him basically coming from off the screen to sack a QB or block a FG. He possessed almost super human athletic ability at one point.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:15 am

@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
@ImperialFan wrote:
@Atlanta Dan wrote:
@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
Doran Grant is going to be a good player in the league, I hope we can get him on the practice squad.  

The way the Steelers luck has been going this preseason they will lose the gamble on releasing Grant when someone picks up Grant on waivers

Another domino falls as the Steelers keep working around injuries and suspensions - the next good news about the Steelers will be the first good news since training camp started

In a way the acquisition of Boykin was good news.

When Boykin gets an extension and Cortez Allen plays like his paid, everything will be fine.  I'm just concerned that Mike Mitchell is going to be exposed as a pretender this year (or blame another injury) and we pushed 12 year vet Troy Polamalu to the curb so we can play 12 year vet Will Allen in his place.  

Also I'm not forgetting what Golson can bring to the team next season. He was a pick machine at Ole Miss and wasn't just a 1 year wonder. He's what you want in a cover 2 CB.

Cortez, Boykins, Golson could be very good.

The Safety position is just a mess. Plain and simple.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:40 am

I really hope that the front office had a good reason to cut Doran Grant but I fear they've made a big mistake. Now we are really thin at the CB position and with the possibility to lose some more in the offseason (3 CB's will be UFA) chances are big that we need to draft a couple again next year. And that while we still need 2 quality starters at safety. If not addressed quickly these positions can cost us a superbowl.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:59 am

Let's hope the powers that be see the pattern that has developed when it comes to the Steelers drafting candidates for their secondary.

The list of failures and misses is substantial and can't be ignored.

Maybe it's time to dissect the process of who evaluates potential and rates the players.

Colbert, Tomlin, and Lake come to mind.  Scouts as well.  When there are that many consecutive "bad picks" somnething needs to change.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:44 pm

@tony hipchest wrote:
@Atlanta Dan wrote:
I am disappointed Shamarko looks like he is not starter quality (Thomas getting all those minutes Thursday night now appears to be a last chance to show the coaches he should start), but it was time for Troy to call it a career - Troy could no longer cover anyone and about all he shared with prime Polamalu from 2004 -  2010 was
that both players wore #43

Troy is one of the all time greats but nothing lasts forever
true. It was more of an indictment of shamarko Thomas then it was an endorsement of Troy. James Harrison still has it. Troy doesn't.

I think I will always be sad that troys very long and succesful career seemed way too short.

Of course Harrison still has it. After Thursday I want to read... 'James Harrison fined $250,000 for making Brady a vegetable.'

Silverback forever!
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:23 pm

Steelers Woes Of Evaluating Secondary Continues

Steelers Depot | September 6, 2015



The Pittsburgh Steelers have released a rookie defensive back.

Stop me if you’ve heard that one before.

In an all too familiar pattern, rookie cornerback Doran Grant and safety Gerod Holliman join a long list of recent defensive backs drafted only to fail to make the initial Week One roster...

to read rest of article:

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2015/09/steelers-woes-of-evaluating-secondary-continues/
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PostSubject: Re: Why Does Mr Colbert Seem to think that you can win in a passing league without a Secondary?   Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:37 pm

Pittsburgh Steelers struggle to draft reliable talent at cornerback

By Dani Bostick on Sep 7, 2015, 12:01p 145



While the Steelers have no difficulties acquiring talent at wide receiver, the same cannot be said for the situation at cornerback.

The Steelers have drafted very well for certain positions, mining talent in later rounds and developing dark horse candidates for NFL playing time into veritable superstars. Unfortunately, their knack for identifying and developing talent has not extended to cornerback. 2015 marks the third year in a row that a cornerback drafted in the fourth or fifth rounds will not see playing time.

The Steelers have found cornerback talent in the draft before. After all, recently-retired Ike Taylor was picked up in round four of the 2003 draft and had a long, productive career with the Steelers. In the wake of his retirement, however, the Steelers are finding themselves in a bit of a personnel crisis.

This year, the Steelers second-round draft pick Senquez Golson never even got to play football-in-pads at training camp, having arrived with a lingering shoulder injury that required surgery and placed him on IR. He never had the chance to prove naysayers wrong who had been perseverating on his small size.

Fourth-round pick Doran Grant out of perennial powerhouse Ohio State was drafted to address needs at cornerback, hailed as a well-rounded player adept at both intercepting the ball and tackling opponents. He did not pan out either, recently cut by the Steelers as they whittled down their roster to the final 53.

In the 2014 draft, the Steelers only picked up one cornerback, Shaquille Richardson out of UCLA, described in very positively in his scouting report: "Quick and agile and is aggressive jumping routes when he sees it. Can make spectacular plays look easy." Though tall, Richardson was a bit scrawny and underdeveloped. He did not make the final 53, instead bouncing around the NFL on various teams' offseason/practice squad units.

In 2013 the Steelers first three picks were Jarvis Jones, Le'Veon Bell and Markus Wheaton. Safety Shamarko Thomas was picked up in the fourth round, along with the controversial Landry Jones. The Steelers did not go for a cornerback until the fifth round, selecting Terry Hawthorn who ended up released at the end of the preseason the same year he has drafted.

Cornerback was not a priority in 2012, as the Steelers used their last draft pick in the seventh round, acquiring Terrence Frederick out of Texas A & M. Frederick is still active in the NFl, though not with the Steelers. He plays for the New Orelans Saints. Not a major contributor, he still was able to start in three games in 2014, totaling 17 tackles.

2011 was the last time before using a second-round pick on Senquez Golson that the Steelers acquired a cornerback in the first three rounds. That year, their choice was Curtis Brown out of Texas. This was the same year they picked up Cortez Allen in the fourth round. Allen is still a Pittsburgh Steeler. Brown, however, only started seven games, during which he tallied only seven tackles, before he tore his ACL and was subsequently released in 2014. He was just waived by the New York Jets.

The Steelers inability to find cornerback talent in the draft is troublesome. Sure, they've acquired talent from other sources. Most recently, they picked up former Philadelphia Eagle Brandon Boykin. Still, in the wake of Ike Taylor's retirement, cornerback is one of the weakest and most worrisome positions on the Pittsburgh Steelers roster.

After cutting a few promising prospects at cornerback, including Kevin Fogg, the Steelers are left with an assortment of players who have had limited success at the position, a few of whom have been heavily criticized over the years. As things stand, William Gay and Cortez Allen will be starting with Antwon Blake, Brandon Boykin, and Ross Cockrell serving as back ups.

to read rest of article:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2015/9/7/9272065/pittsburgh-steelers-struggle-to-draft-reliable-talent-at-cornerback-NFL
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