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 Keith Butler and his philosophy

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schillah

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PostSubject: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:23 am

Is it time for Tomlin to intervene? Because playing a 3-4 defense like a 4-3 is not working at all. Bend but don't break...but what happens when you start to break? How many times did we see Timmons have to cover Edelman on a crossing route? Why keep calling the same plays that puts Timmons in that position? Seeing Brady rush for 3 first downs made me sick. Now I'm not saying blitzing is the key to solving the problem but bottom 5 in pass defense? The basic rush the outside linebackers and everyone else play coverage is softening this defense.

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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:28 am

schillah wrote:
Is it time for Tomlin to intervene? Because playing a 3-4 defense like a 4-3 is not working at all. Bend but don't break...but what happens when you start to break? How many times did we see Timmons have to cover Edelman on a crossing route? Why keep calling the same plays that puts Timmons in that position? Seeing Brady rush for 3 first downs made me sick. Now I'm not saying blitzing is the key to solving the problem but bottom 5 in pass defense? The basic rush the outside linebackers and everyone else play coverage is softening this defense.

It is not Joe Greene, Greg Lloyd, Rod Woodson and Troy in their primes out there - hard to make chicken salad out of chickenshit

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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:40 am

Atlanta Dan wrote:
schillah wrote:
Is it time for Tomlin to intervene? Because playing a 3-4 defense like a 4-3 is not working at all. Bend but don't break...but what happens when you start to break? How many times did we see Timmons have to cover Edelman on a crossing route? Why keep calling the same plays that puts Timmons in that position? Seeing Brady rush for 3 first downs made me sick. Now I'm not saying blitzing is the key to solving the problem but bottom 5 in pass defense? The basic rush the outside linebackers and everyone else play coverage is softening this defense.

It is not Joe Greene, Greg Lloyd, Rod Woodson and Troy in their primes out there - hard to make chicken salad out of chickenshit


True but why not try something different regardless? Big plays are happening every week

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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:09 am

It is going to take time for the young guys on this D to learn to lay NFL football. I think Butler is over cautious with them. When your best player and leader of a group is out it will affect things. Hopefully Cam will be back for Baltimore. Davis, Burns, Hargrave will get better, but it might just get a little worse until that time. Jarvis, IMO, was the best defender yesterday he appeared to play his ass off, but it also doesn't help Dupree being out, I believe he is going to be very good when he's healthy.
I would like to see Justin Gilbert out there more, see what he brings to the table.
This team needs to stop the run first and foremost and right now with Cam sidelined that doesn't seem possible. Every thing New England did yesterday was off the run and the big runs were right over where Cam would've been.
I am hpeful they will clean some of this mess up before we start the second half of the season. If not we might be in the running for Gibril Peppers!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:17 am

Rick5895 wrote:
It is going to take time for the young guys on this D to learn to lay NFL football.  I think Butler is over cautious with them.  When your best player and leader of a group is out it will affect things.  Hopefully Cam will be back for Baltimore.  Davis, Burns, Hargrave will get better, but it might just get a little worse until that time.  Jarvis, IMO, was the best defender yesterday he appeared to play his ass off, but it also doesn't help Dupree being out, I believe he is going to be very good when he's healthy.
I would like to see Justin Gilbert out there more, see what he brings to the table.
This team needs to stop the run first and foremost and right now with Cam sidelined that doesn't seem possible.  Every thing New England did yesterday was off the run and the big runs were right over where Cam would've been.  
I am hpeful they will clean some of this mess up before we start the second half of the season. If not we might be in the running for Gibril Peppers!!!

Reminds me of when Aaron Smith went down and running backs did whatever they wanted after that.


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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:14 pm

schillah wrote:
Rick5895 wrote:
It is going to take time for the young guys on this D to learn to lay NFL football.  I think Butler is over cautious with them.  When your best player and leader of a group is out it will affect things.  Hopefully Cam will be back for Baltimore.  Davis, Burns, Hargrave will get better, but it might just get a little worse until that time.  Jarvis, IMO, was the best defender yesterday he appeared to play his ass off, but it also doesn't help Dupree being out, I believe he is going to be very good when he's healthy.
I would like to see Justin Gilbert out there more, see what he brings to the table.
This team needs to stop the run first and foremost and right now with Cam sidelined that doesn't seem possible.  Every thing New England did yesterday was off the run and the big runs were right over where Cam would've been.  
I am hpeful they will clean some of this mess up before we start the second half of the season. If not we might be in the running for Gibril Peppers!!!

Reminds me of when Aaron Smith went down and running backs did whatever they wanted after that.


Indeed. I understand that our secondary has been horrific for some years now, but if our defensive line becomes weak, that is all she wrote. The D-line has always set the tone for great Steelers defenses. Ever since Casey Hampton, Aaron Smith, Brett Keisel, etc. have left, we have become weaker at stopping the run. You can see a major difference with our defense when Cam Heyward isn't playing. This just puts extra pressure on our secondary to try and cover the WR's and TE's who will eventually get open if the QB is comfortable in the pocket. The Steelers defense has to be stop the run first and make the opposing offenses one dimensional. Unfortunately, that hasn't been happening lately.

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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:42 am

I find it amusing that all the people that talked about not needing a NT because they aren't important in todays NFL are now likely complaining that the Steelers cant stop the run. McCullers is not really worth rotating in. Hargrave is more of a 1 gap DT instead of a NT.

Its not all philosophy, but not having Heyward is huge. Matthews and Walton are a big drop off right now and our OLB's got mauled in the run game on Sunday. So, if your only impactful defender in the front 5 is Tuitt, sure you will get ran on.

You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your players cant win their 1 on 1 battles, you will get beat. Steelers front got beat badly in the run game.
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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:09 am

Losing to the likes of the Miami's year in and year out when you have no business losing to those lousy teams is what drives me up the freakin wall. It's prep, it's scheme and it's execution. If your coaches cant figure this out after 9 years than their is a problem with the coach.

I have never been a big Tomlin fan. I think he is cool and has the look but I am not impressed by his coaching in the least. When you lose to bottom dwellers, that's coaching that is failed miserably. I am tired of watching 2-3 losses every year to shitty teams.
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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:32 am

would like to see the Steelers draft a couple of 265 -270 quick DEs and a couple pass coverage OLBs.

would be great to have 3 starting LBs with Shazier speed, Steelers already have the 4-3 DTs

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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:40 am

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
I find it amusing that all the people that talked about not needing a NT because they aren't important in todays NFL are now likely complaining that the Steelers cant stop the run.  McCullers is not really worth rotating in.  Hargrave is more of a 1 gap DT instead of a NT.  

Its not all philosophy, but not having Heyward is huge.  Matthews and Walton are a big drop off right now and our OLB's got mauled in the run game on Sunday.  So, if your only impactful defender in the front 5 is Tuitt, sure you will get ran on.  

You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your players cant win their 1 on 1 battles, you will get beat.  Steelers front got beat badly in the run game.

I am one of the fans who has been crying for a decent NT ever since Casey Hampton left us. I really wanted Danny Shelton in the 2015 draft, but Cleveland took him before we could get him. And then there was Malcom Brown from Texas, but we passed on him for LB Bud Dupree. To make things even worse, New England ended up with him. I have always been a firm believer in building both your offensive and defensive lines first and then work your way out. The games are really won in the trenches, but good luck convincing this new generation of fantasy football nerds that this is true.

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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:48 am

When were anemic in the sack department and we rush 4 to 5 only. Got to wonder why we don't blitz with more than 5 more often. If our young DB's are getting beat cause the QB has too much time then...shouldn't we press the QB?
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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:00 am

Bud Dupree's injury is looming larger than I think any of us thought it would. Not having him in the rotation is hurting our pass rush, and Heyward being out with an injury is hurting it as well. That being said, sometimes you've got to gamble and blitz and I don't really recall seeing a blitz at all against the Patriots*. Something has got to give, we can't just let opposing QBs sit back there and get comfortable. We have a really bad habit of making even the most mediocre QBs in the league look like future hall of famers.

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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:40 am

I've always held to the thought that new coordinators deserve at least 3 years minimum to see their full impact.

I'm still ok with Butler doing his thing, especially considering the list of injuries on the defensive side of the ball.

With that being said, I'm concerned on the lack of pass rush, run stopping, and tackling techniques being used by the group of men playing defense.

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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:35 am

Jazzo wrote:
El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
I find it amusing that all the people that talked about not needing a NT because they aren't important in todays NFL are now likely complaining that the Steelers cant stop the run.  McCullers is not really worth rotating in.  Hargrave is more of a 1 gap DT instead of a NT.  

Its not all philosophy, but not having Heyward is huge.  Matthews and Walton are a big drop off right now and our OLB's got mauled in the run game on Sunday.  So, if your only impactful defender in the front 5 is Tuitt, sure you will get ran on.  

You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your players cant win their 1 on 1 battles, you will get beat.  Steelers front got beat badly in the run game.

I am one of the fans who has been crying for a decent NT ever since Casey Hampton left us. I really wanted Danny Shelton in the 2015 draft, but Cleveland took him before we could get him. And then there was Malcom Brown from Texas, but we passed on him for LB Bud Dupree. To make things even worse, New England ended up with him. I have always been a firm believer in building both your offensive and defensive lines first and then work your way out. The games are really won in the trenches, but good luck convincing this new generation of fantasy football nerds that this is true.

Yeah, Bill Parcells philosophy was also to build the O and D-lines first and then work to skill players. IMO, the Steelers have a solid O line and 2 real good D linemen, but not having OLB's that can hold the edge in the run game and another solid O lineman up front, really hurts the run defense IMO. I think we can all see that somebody like Justin Ellis would have been better for this team than Dri Archer in that draft year.
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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:22 am

Blaming Butler is always the easy way to go. Same thing happen with Haley. However, I'm just not a coordinator blamer. And the common denominator is Tomlin. It's Tomlin's job to make sure his teams are ready for last place teams and rookie QB's. You let Carson Wentz and Ryan Tannehill ruin your team. Let that sink in a little.
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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:02 pm

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
I find it amusing that all the people that talked about not needing a NT because they aren't important in todays NFL are now likely complaining that the Steelers cant stop the run.  McCullers is not really worth rotating in.  Hargrave is more of a 1 gap DT instead of a NT.  

Its not all philosophy, but not having Heyward is huge.  Matthews and Walton are a big drop off right now and our OLB's got mauled in the run game on Sunday.  So, if your only impactful defender in the front 5 is Tuitt, sure you will get ran on.  

You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your players cant win their 1 on 1 battles, you will get beat.  Steelers front got beat badly in the run game.
 what he said. you can't blame the coaches for players lack of talent... but you can blame the coaches and GM for not fielding the right talent. the steelers have a habit of giving players way too long for a chance to develop , and it is detrimental to the roster.

McCullers is a prime example. looks like tarzan plays like jane. they keep waiting for this "savage" instinct to kick in , and it just ain't happening. they think the james harrison experience where a light goes off, and a perennial nobody suddenly turns into a hall of famer, is going to repeat itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:07 pm

El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:


You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your players cant win their 1 on 1 battles, you will get beat.

Ed B. of the P-G agrees.  This from his online chat yesterday.

Not specific to this season, but overall, what needs to happen to get the defense back to a Steel Curtain or Blitzburgh level?

Ed Bouchette: More talent


http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2016/10/25/Ed-Bouchette-s-Steelers-chat-10-25-16/stories/201610250116
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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:34 pm

Atlanta Dan wrote:
El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:


You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your players cant win their 1 on 1 battles, you will get beat.

Ed B. of the P-G agrees.  This from his online chat yesterday.

Not specific to this season, but overall, what needs to happen to get the defense back to a Steel Curtain or Blitzburgh level?

Ed Bouchette: More talent


http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2016/10/25/Ed-Bouchette-s-Steelers-chat-10-25-16/stories/201610250116

Good point.

Hell I'm still waiting for Polamalu's true replacement

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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:18 am

schillah wrote:
Atlanta Dan wrote:
El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:


You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your players cant win their 1 on 1 battles, you will get beat.

Ed B. of the P-G agrees.  This from his online chat yesterday.

Not specific to this season, but overall, what needs to happen to get the defense back to a Steel Curtain or Blitzburgh level?

Ed Bouchette: More talent


http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2016/10/25/Ed-Bouchette-s-Steelers-chat-10-25-16/stories/201610250116

Good point.

Hell I'm still waiting for Polamalu's true replacement

How many years you plan on waiting?

I waited 7 years for Rod Woodson's replacement (that being Troy), and now I fear we may be in the same situation until we find another player in the same category as those 2.

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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:25 am

stlrtruck wrote:
schillah wrote:
Atlanta Dan wrote:
El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:


You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your players cant win their 1 on 1 battles, you will get beat.

Ed B. of the P-G agrees.  This from his online chat yesterday.

Not specific to this season, but overall, what needs to happen to get the defense back to a Steel Curtain or Blitzburgh level?

Ed Bouchette: More talent


http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2016/10/25/Ed-Bouchette-s-Steelers-chat-10-25-16/stories/201610250116

Good point.

Hell I'm still waiting for Polamalu's true replacement

How many years you plan on waiting?

I waited 7 years for Rod Woodson's replacement (that being Troy), and now I fear we may be in the same situation until we find another player in the same category as those 2.

Many franchises would kill for only a seven year wait between Hall of Fame defensive backs
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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:27 pm

Atlanta Dan wrote:
stlrtruck wrote:
schillah wrote:
Atlanta Dan wrote:
El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:


You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your players cant win their 1 on 1 battles, you will get beat.

Ed B. of the P-G agrees.  This from his online chat yesterday.

Not specific to this season, but overall, what needs to happen to get the defense back to a Steel Curtain or Blitzburgh level?

Ed Bouchette: More talent


http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2016/10/25/Ed-Bouchette-s-Steelers-chat-10-25-16/stories/201610250116

Good point.

Hell I'm still waiting for Polamalu's true replacement

How many years you plan on waiting?

I waited 7 years for Rod Woodson's replacement (that being Troy), and now I fear we may be in the same situation until we find another player in the same category as those 2.

Many franchises would kill for only a seven year wait between Hall of Fame defensive backs  

True!

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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:48 pm

stlrtruck wrote:
schillah wrote:
Atlanta Dan wrote:
El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:


You can have the best scheme in the world, but if your players cant win their 1 on 1 battles, you will get beat.

Ed B. of the P-G agrees.  This from his online chat yesterday.

Not specific to this season, but overall, what needs to happen to get the defense back to a Steel Curtain or Blitzburgh level?

Ed Bouchette: More talent


http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2016/10/25/Ed-Bouchette-s-Steelers-chat-10-25-16/stories/201610250116

Good point.

Hell I'm still waiting for Polamalu's true replacement

How many years you plan on waiting?

I waited 7 years for Rod Woodson's replacement (that being Troy), and now I fear we may be in the same situation until we find another player in the same category as those 2.

I started following the Steelers in 78, in 2nd grade. As I was getting into middle school they were starting the decline from the dynasty. By the middle 1980's they were rough times, and remember feeling like:when are they going to replace Lambert, Mean Joe, and the others?

Building the next great D didn't come to be until Cowher took over in 92, but the building blocks were being laid prior to his arrival. Woodson and Lloyd came on in the late 80's, Greene was a free agent later on. The Same thing happened in the early 2000's with Harrison, Troy, Farrior. I'm hoping we have some building blocks in place now. Heyward and a healthy Shazier definitely are, Tuitt, maybe guys like Dupree, Hargrave, and hopefully at least one of the recent high round DBs.

I think what the D is really lacking is someone with the ferocity and/or elite talent that can make everyone better. A Lambert, Lloyd, Harrison in his prime, an elite talent like Troy. For me patience is something that is tough in regards to the Steelers...I want it all every year. I'm just hoping they can find and/or further develop some of these cogs while we still have an elite QB with multiple elite weapons.



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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:14 pm

The frustrating part for me is the fact that last season started out rough defensively and we said "Hopefully they will grow". By the end of the season, I saw (IMO) an improvement and I was optimistic that this season would build off that. Now I know there are injuries but it just feels like the defense has become stagnate or worse: there might have even been a bit of regression.

I thought blitz after blitz would have been what the Steelers would have done against the Patriots* but it didn't appear to be that way. You are either the enforcer or the enforcee. This defense seems to play the "let's just not be too aggressive so we don't do anything stupid to lose the game" as far as concept goes.

My buddy has said this and I'm starting to be a fan of it: move Shazier to SS. Might keep him from being injured and I think he's certainly fast enough to play the position.

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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:19 pm

schillah wrote:
Is it time for Tomlin to intervene? Because playing a 3-4 defense like a 4-3 is not working at all. Bend but don't break...but what happens when you start to break? How many times did we see Timmons have to cover Edelman on a crossing route? Why keep calling the same plays that puts Timmons in that position? Seeing Brady rush for 3 first downs made me sick. Now I'm not saying blitzing is the key to solving the problem but bottom 5 in pass defense? The basic rush the outside linebackers and everyone else play coverage is softening this defense.

intervene?
this defense has tomlin stamped all over it
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PostSubject: Re: Keith Butler and his philosophy    Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:37 am

didn't you people notice the Steelers playing the 4-3 defense against the Patriots* and the past years the Patriots* torched the Steelers 3-4 defense? the way the Giant defense shut down the Patriots* offense in the big game?

how to spend the salary cap money on the defense to get the best bang for the buck is the question.

out of the 4-3 defense you can run defensive line stunts plus the fire blitz.

also there are some good raw quick DEs coming out of college in the later rounds so what you want them to set on the bench as the learn to be a OLB in a 3-4 defense.

the Steelers have the middle of the 4-3 defense in place it is just edges of the defense that they need the players.

build from the inside out on with the front 7 watch these young DBs come into their on next season.

i'm just crazy effyou but next years draft will tell the story.




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