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 Team speed on defense

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effyou515



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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:55 am

look at the old clips and compare the 70s Steelers defense to today's Steelers defense.





the 70s Steelers defense was more about quickness and speed to stop the run and quickness and speed to rush the QB.

In today's game a little different but it's kinda the same quickness on the inside and speed on the outside.

quickness on the inside ties up blockers for the speed on the outside.

the 70s Steelers defense wasn't big but it was quicker like when Don Shula was the head coach of the colts and Noll was his defensive coordinator. Noll a LB coach from Sid Gillman's AFL high flying offense.


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Fire Arians

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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:09 pm

Call me crazy but I think today's defense is probably the best equipped to stop an offense like the Patriots**.

Honestly I think the defense has been on a tear since Dupree rejoined the lineup, he's the spark we need. He looks to be turning out into a potential great player. Good pass rush but also blows up any short passing plays to his side since he's fast enough to get in position to make a play, where other OLB's wouldn't even come close.

Shazier has an INT in 4 straight games, he's finally starting to become that impact player we need. Yes we've all seen flashes of what he could be, but this season he's starting to string those strong performances week after week, consistency was an issue in the past 2 years, but this year he seems to be really getting it.

Timmons lately has been really great at blitzing up the middle, I'd like to see more of that. I don't know what Brady's passer rating is when he's forced to move sideways but it doesn't seem good.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:26 pm

@Fire Arians wrote:
Call me crazy but I think today's defense is probably the best equipped to stop an offense like the Patriots***.

Honestly I think the defense has been on a tear since Dupree rejoined the lineup, he's the spark we need. He looks to be turning out into a potential great player. Good pass rush but also blows up any short passing plays to his side since he's fast enough to get in position to make a play, where other OLB's wouldn't even come close.

Shazier has an INT in 4 straight games, he's finally starting to become that impact player we need. Yes we've all seen flashes of what he could be, but this season he's starting to string those strong performances week after week, consistency was an issue in the past 2 years, but this year he seems to be really getting it.

Timmons lately has been really great at blitzing up the middle, I'd like to see more of that. I don't know what Brady's passer rating is when he's forced to move sideways but it doesn't seem good.

OK, you are crazy.

I think that the biggest key to stopping the Patriots* is having a group of corners that can make things difficult in the slot for Edelmann and Amendola, so that Brady has to hang onto the ball longer, then have a pass rush up the middle to get Brady moving. IMO, Senquez Golson was going to be that slot CB that would help and if we had Heyward healthy the interior rush of Heyward and Tuitt would be solid.

Going to be a big challenge for Gay to cover the slot WR and make things tough, but I hope he is up to the task. Likewise, it will be up to Tuitt and Hargrave to get upfield, and I hope we have Matthews and Walton to keep Hargrave fresh. Otherwise, Shazier is fast enough to deal with Lewis out of the backfield and otherwise the Steeler DB's match up with the Pats* WR's. The only other x factor IMO, is Blount. If he establishes the run, then its tough to tee off on pass rush.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:37 pm

@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
@Fire Arians wrote:
Call me crazy but I think today's defense is probably the best equipped to stop an offense like the Patriots*****.

Honestly I think the defense has been on a tear since Dupree rejoined the lineup, he's the spark we need. He looks to be turning out into a potential great player. Good pass rush but also blows up any short passing plays to his side since he's fast enough to get in position to make a play, where other OLB's wouldn't even come close.

Shazier has an INT in 4 straight games, he's finally starting to become that impact player we need. Yes we've all seen flashes of what he could be, but this season he's starting to string those strong performances week after week, consistency was an issue in the past 2 years, but this year he seems to be really getting it.

Timmons lately has been really great at blitzing up the middle, I'd like to see more of that. I don't know what Brady's passer rating is when he's forced to move sideways but it doesn't seem good.

OK, you are crazy.

I think that the biggest key to stopping the Patriots*** is having a group of corners that can make things difficult in the slot for Edelmann and Amendola, so that Brady has to hang onto the ball longer, then have a pass rush up the middle to get Brady moving.  IMO, Senquez Golson was going to be that slot CB that would help and if we had Heyward healthy the interior rush of Heyward and Tuitt would be solid.

Going to be a big challenge for Gay to cover the slot WR and make things tough, but I hope he is up to the task.  Likewise, it will be up to Tuitt and Hargrave to get upfield, and I hope we have Matthews and Walton to keep Hargrave fresh.  Otherwise, Shazier is fast enough to deal with Lewis out of the backfield and otherwise the Steeler DB's match up with the Pats*** WR's.  The only other x factor IMO, is Blount.  If he establishes the run, then its tough to tee off on pass rush.

Not saying corners aren't important, but I still have nightmares about kevin faulk burning our ILB's who were too slow to cover him. I don't see Dion Lewis having his way like that with Shazier, or maybe even Timmons.

Our corners though definitely are better than what we've had in the past as well. Burns is looking to be a great addition that's contributed much sooner than we anticipated.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:37 pm

@Fire Arians wrote:


Not saying corners aren't important, but I still have nightmares about kevin faulk burning our ILB's who were too slow to cover him. I don't see Dion Lewis having his way like that with Shazier, or maybe even Timmons.

Our corners though definitely are better than what we've had in the past as well. Burns is looking to be a great addition that's contributed much sooner than we anticipated.

I cant remember if Shazier was playing the first time these teams played in the regular season, but I remember Timmons not being able to get to a RB on a designed screen. Lewis is so shifty, he can still be a big factor.

As for the CB's and Safety play, I think the recognition of the safety to either help double Edelmann, or to help over the top so the outside guys in Cockrell and Burns can come off their zone and step to any crossing routes Edelmann runs will be important if that is in the scheme. I think if Golden is healthy we might see him more and either he or Davis moves up to play an ILB spot in passing downs.

Burns and Davis definitely improved as the season goes on. Burns still has a long way to go from a technique standpoint IMO, as they let him play in bail a lot and he gets his head and shoulders too far around so he can react efficiently. I watch him vs Cockrell and Cockrell is more efficient in his technique, where Burns has been relying on his athletic ability. If Burns has better technique, there was an under thrown pass that is an INT last week and some penalties that don't happen. Still, I'm really happy how well he has done this year and the promise going forward.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:49 pm

What's interesting is Tomlin is heavily influenced by Dungy and Dungy has said that his defenses were heavily influenced by the Steel Curtain defenses. I'm definitely not as knowledgeable about the little intricacies of defense like many of you are. It seems to me that Tomlin has some parts of his defense that are Lebeau inspired and others that are Dungy. We've been seeing his vision on the defense come to light since the old war horses like Polamalu, Aaron Smith, Keisel, Casey Hampton, Ike Taylor, and others have retired. There's been some growing pains along the way but I personally feel good about the defense's future with guys like Burns, Davis, Hargrave, Dupree, Shazier, Tuitt, and Heyward. The one big difference I see between Butler's defense and Lebeau's is that turnovers are a bigger part of what Keith looks for in evaluating talent and Butler is far willing to play rookies. We have three defenders in our defense and we're a playoff team. That gives me reason for optimism since I think Burns, Davis, and Hargrave can all improve.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:25 pm

@ImmaculateGreenePolamalu wrote:
What's interesting is Tomlin is heavily influenced by Dungy and Dungy has said that his defenses were heavily influenced by the Steel Curtain defenses. I'm definitely not as knowledgeable about the little intricacies of defense like many of you are. It seems to me that Tomlin has some parts of his defense that are Lebeau inspired and others that are Dungy. We've been seeing his vision on the defense come to light since the old war horses like Polamalu, Aaron Smith, Keisel, Casey Hampton, Ike Taylor, and others have retired. There's been some growing pains along the way but I personally feel good about the defense's future with guys like Burns, Davis, Hargrave, Dupree,  Shazier, Tuitt, and Heyward.  The one big difference I see between Butler's defense and Lebeau's is that turnovers are a bigger part of what Keith looks for in evaluating talent and Butler is far willing to play rookies. We have three defenders in our defense and we're a playoff team. That gives me reason for optimism since I think Burns, Davis, and Hargrave can all improve.

I don't think that LeBeau didn't want guys that get turnovers or Butler looks for guys that get turnovers. Sean Davis only had 3 INT in 2015 at Maryland. Some of LeBeau's defenses in the 2005-2010 I bet were productive in the turnover ratio. And its not like LeBeau didn't like to play rookies, it was just that his schemes often disguised pre snap and took more time to learn, PLUS the Steelers had a succession plan of guys and it wasn't a fire drill to get players like now.

The recent Steelers teams havent had the depth and they have been trying to push talented rookies to start earlier. McCullers wasn't beating out Hargrave, the injury to Golson meant that Davis had to start in the slot because he was farther along than Burns. I think we saw Shazier starting right away, when he wasn't injured and there was a conscious effort to try and get Jarvis Jones more time as a rookie, but again he was injured and terrible.

There is a good core of young talent on the defensive side of the ball, but the cap crunch will come soon enough. Shazier, Tuitt, Cockrell will need new contracts, as will AB, Bell and Villanueva on the offensive side of the ball. Tough decisions to make and Timmons, Mitchell and Gay might not be around much longer.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:19 am

@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

There is a good core of young talent on the defensive side of the ball, but the cap crunch will come soon enough.  Shazier, Tuitt, Cockrell will need new contracts, as will AB, Bell and Villanueva on the offensive side of the ball.  Tough decisions to make and Timmons, Mitchell and Gay might not be around much longer.  

Hey El-Gonzo, enjoy reading your posts here as you seem to know what you are talking about.

I know this thread is about defense, but this part of your post I wanted to ask you something. Do you think its fair that teams who draft players and then groom them should not be counted against a salary cap when it comes to resigning them? Why should teams that draft and coach well (like the Steelers) be punished to lose talent in various positions to other teams that do those things poorly? It's at time infuriating to see bad teams offer solid players great contracts because the team that drafted them didn't have the cap space to sign them.

In the current payroll system we have, it always makes sense to take the most money whatever other team offers and not take a "hometown discount" to stay put.

Maybe I'm naive about all this but wanted your take on it.

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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:20 am

@Stryker wrote:
@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

There is a good core of young talent on the defensive side of the ball, but the cap crunch will come soon enough.  Shazier, Tuitt, Cockrell will need new contracts, as will AB, Bell and Villanueva on the offensive side of the ball.  Tough decisions to make and Timmons, Mitchell and Gay might not be around much longer.  

Hey El-Gonzo, enjoy reading your posts here as you seem to know what you are talking about.

I know this thread is about defense, but this part of your post I wanted to ask you something. Do you think its fair that teams who draft players and then groom them should not be counted against a salary cap when it comes to resigning them? Why should teams that draft and coach well (like the Steelers) be punished to lose talent in various positions to other teams that do those things poorly? It's at time infuriating to see bad teams offer solid players great contracts because the team that drafted them didn't have the cap space to sign them.

In the current payroll system we have, it always makes sense to take the most money whatever other team offers and not take a "hometown discount" to stay put.

Maybe I'm naive about all this but wanted your take on it.

Second that. Gonz is very well spoken, and knowledgeable about the game, far more knowledgeable than I am, that's for sure. I appreciate the insight he offers.

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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:38 am

@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
@Fire Arians wrote:


Not saying corners aren't important, but I still have nightmares about kevin faulk burning our ILB's who were too slow to cover him. I don't see Dion Lewis having his way like that with Shazier, or maybe even Timmons.

Our corners though definitely are better than what we've had in the past as well. Burns is looking to be a great addition that's contributed much sooner than we anticipated.

I cant remember if Shazier was playing the first time these teams played in the regular season, but I remember Timmons not being able to get to a RB on a designed screen.  Lewis is so shifty, he can still be a big factor.

As for the CB's and Safety play, I think the recognition of the safety to either help double Edelmann, or to help over the top so the outside guys in Cockrell and Burns can come off their zone and step to any crossing routes Edelmann runs will be important if that is in the scheme.  I think if Golden is healthy we might see him more and either he or Davis moves up to play an ILB spot in passing downs.

Burns and Davis definitely improved as the season goes on.  Burns still has a long way to go from a technique standpoint IMO, as they let him play in bail a lot and he gets his head and shoulders too far around so he can react efficiently.  I watch him vs Cockrell and Cockrell is more efficient in his technique, where Burns has been relying on his athletic ability.  If Burns has better technique, there was an under thrown pass that is an INT last week and some penalties that don't happen.  Still, I'm really happy how well he has done this year and the promise going forward.

The last time we played I'm pretty sure Shazier and DuPree were out as well as Ben. The CB that worries me more is Cockrell because he makes his share of mistakes. If we are going to beat these guys everyone has to do their job. I have a feeling if we shut Blount down early and keep all Brady's passes in front of us we stand a good chance. We have to stop Blount on the way to Brady. I look for Tuitt, Hargrave,Harrison and Dupree for the necessary pass rush. If those 4 can get to Brady consistently we will see a different result than our first meeting. We'll have to Blitz probably Gay to keep Brady guessing but if we get to him right away and often he is average at best.

On the other side Bell is key as well as guys like JJ, Grimble,( I hope Green can play) Hamilton,DHB have to get open and Ben needs to be on target with his throws. We have to win time of possession.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:39 am

@Stryker wrote:
@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:

There is a good core of young talent on the defensive side of the ball, but the cap crunch will come soon enough.  Shazier, Tuitt, Cockrell will need new contracts, as will AB, Bell and Villanueva on the offensive side of the ball.  Tough decisions to make and Timmons, Mitchell and Gay might not be around much longer.  

Hey El-Gonzo, enjoy reading your posts here as you seem to know what you are talking about.

I know this thread is about defense, but this part of your post I wanted to ask you something. Do you think its fair that teams who draft players and then groom them should not be counted against a salary cap when it comes to resigning them? Why should teams that draft and coach well (like the Steelers) be punished to lose talent in various positions to other teams that do those things poorly? It's at time infuriating to see bad teams offer solid players great contracts because the team that drafted them didn't have the cap space to sign them.

In the current payroll system we have, it always makes sense to take the most money whatever other team offers and not take a "hometown discount" to stay put.

Maybe I'm naive about all this but wanted your take on it.

Stryker, I love the avatar, especially since its been approx. 1 year from that fun time :)

I think every team tries to draft players and groom them, so its tough to treat different teams any differently with regards to the cap just because some may be more successful than others. If you take the Redskins and Dan Snyder as a team that normally goes to the FA market for guys like Josh Norman and DeSean Jackson as a team to penalize, do you somehow have to reward them for the development of Jordan Reed (3rd round) and Kirk Cousins to be impact players for them??

The NFL is a business and has to be treated as a fair market system for players as much as it can. People move from job to job based upon salary, work environment, management, organizational culture, etc. The NFL is no different, so you find some players like Mike Wallace who has chased the $ and bounced all over, compared to AB who has been underpaid the past few seasons, but his bosses work with him to compromise between the contract he signed and giving him some more $$ in restructure to keep him happy in Pittsburgh.

Without a salary cap and revenue sharing you get teams and owners outbidding each other and driving up costs to the point that some franchises financially cant compete or operate well. It happened in the NBA, NFL, NHL...so IMO a cap is necessary. The retention of players IMO is just like a corporation. You pay your employees well, treat them well, have a good environment to work and surrounded by good people and they feel appreciated and like working there. When you don't, then they call it the Cincinnati Bengals.

BTW, thanks to you and Iowa for the words. I appreciate them, but in the end I'm just a football junkie that has been a fan for over 35 years and sponges up info, who also can be full of crap as the next guy. I thought Steven Jackson would be a bust at RB and Javon Kearse was a tweener, but also screamed for the Steelers to draft Carl Nicks in the 5th and recognized Al Woods as a pro prospect while watching LSU for Tyson Jackson, Ricky Jean Francois and Marlon Favorite.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:47 am

@solardave wrote:


The last time we played I'm pretty sure Shazier and DuPree were out as well as Ben. The CB that worries me more is Cockrell because he makes his share of mistakes. If we are going to beat these guys everyone has to do their job. I have a feeling if we shut Blount down early and keep all Brady's passes in front of us we stand a good chance. We have to stop Blount on the way to Brady. I look for Tuitt, Hargrave,Harrison and Dupree for the necessary pass rush. If those 4 can get to Brady consistently we will see a different result than our first meeting. We'll have to Blitz probably Gay to keep Brady guessing but if we get to him right away and often he is average at best.

On the other side Bell is key as well as guys like JJ, Grimble,( I hope Green can play) Hamilton,DHB have to get open and Ben needs to be on target with his throws. We have to win time of possession.

I think you are right that we were without both Shazier and Dupree on defense, so that is an improvement. What mistakes are you worried about with Cockrell? I actually think that Cockrell has played better than Burns this season and has much better technique. He has taken some penalties for being physical in coverage, but that is expected. There were points midseason where he wasn't breaking on intermediate routes, because he still left too much cushion, IMO...but that has improved and it may be due to more safety help deep.

Personally, I think Cockrell has played as good, if not better than Gay this season...but they play 2 different styles of game because the boundary is different than playing slot CB. To me, Cockrell is a taller version of DeShea Townsend who is only a 3rd year guy getting better.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:44 am

@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
@solardave wrote:


The last time we played I'm pretty sure Shazier and DuPree were out as well as Ben. The CB that worries me more is Cockrell because he makes his share of mistakes. If we are going to beat these guys everyone has to do their job. I have a feeling if we shut Blount down early and keep all Brady's passes in front of us we stand a good chance. We have to stop Blount on the way to Brady. I look for Tuitt, Hargrave,Harrison and Dupree for the necessary pass rush. If those 4 can get to Brady consistently we will see a different result than our first meeting. We'll have to Blitz probably Gay to keep Brady guessing but if we get to him right away and often he is average at best.

On the other side Bell is key as well as guys like JJ, Grimble,( I hope Green can play) Hamilton,DHB have to get open and Ben needs to be on target with his throws. We have to win time of possession.

I think you are right that we were without both Shazier and Dupree on defense, so that is an improvement.  What mistakes are you worried about with Cockrell?  I actually think that Cockrell has played better than Burns this season and has much better technique.  He has taken some penalties for being physical in coverage, but that is expected.  There were points midseason where he wasn't breaking on intermediate routes, because he still left too much cushion, IMO...but that has improved and it may be due to more safety help deep.

Personally, I think Cockrell has played as good, if not better than Gay this season...but they play 2 different styles of game because the boundary is different than playing slot CB.  To me, Cockrell is a taller version of DeShea Townsend who is only a 3rd year guy getting better.

I agree Cockrell has played better than Gay but I think he makes as many mistakes as Burns. He misses tackles often and he seems to over pursue on screens leaving Gay or Davis and even Timmons to have to run guys down from behind. I just don't see him being real consistent. Maybe I'm asking too much.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:58 am

@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
@ImmaculateGreenePolamalu wrote:
What's interesting is Tomlin is heavily influenced by Dungy and Dungy has said that his defenses were heavily influenced by the Steel Curtain defenses. I'm definitely not as knowledgeable about the little intricacies of defense like many of you are. It seems to me that Tomlin has some parts of his defense that are Lebeau inspired and others that are Dungy. We've been seeing his vision on the defense come to light since the old war horses like Polamalu, Aaron Smith, Keisel, Casey Hampton, Ike Taylor, and others have retired. There's been some growing pains along the way but I personally feel good about the defense's future with guys like Burns, Davis, Hargrave, Dupree,  Shazier, Tuitt, and Heyward.  The one big difference I see between Butler's defense and Lebeau's is that turnovers are a bigger part of what Keith looks for in evaluating talent and Butler is far willing to play rookies. We have three defenders in our defense and we're a playoff team. That gives me reason for optimism since I think Burns, Davis, and Hargrave can all improve.

I don't think that LeBeau didn't want guys that get turnovers or Butler looks for guys that get turnovers.  Sean Davis only had 3 INT in 2015 at Maryland.  Some of LeBeau's defenses in the 2005-2010 I bet were productive in the turnover ratio.  And its not like LeBeau didn't like to play rookies, it was just that his schemes often disguised pre snap and took more time to learn, PLUS the Steelers had a succession plan of guys and it wasn't a fire drill to get players like now.

The recent Steelers teams havent had the depth and they have been trying to push talented rookies to start earlier.  McCullers wasn't beating out Hargrave, the injury to Golson meant that Davis had to start in the slot because he was farther along than Burns.  I think we saw Shazier starting right away, when he wasn't injured and there was a conscious effort to try and get Jarvis Jones more time as a rookie, but again he was injured and terrible.

There is a good core of young talent on the defensive side of the ball, but the cap crunch will come soon enough.  Shazier, Tuitt, Cockrell will need new contracts, as will AB, Bell and Villanueva on the offensive side of the ball.  Tough decisions to make and Timmons, Mitchell and Gay might not be around much longer.  
As I said, you guys know much more than I do. But yeah there's going to be a lot of tough decisions to make. My hope is when Ben retires, we have a strong defensive core to take pressure off of his successor.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:13 am

speed kills if it's not used with extreme discipline.

Bottom line, although we have the speed, it doesn't mean players can go full throttle undisciplined. Especially this Sunday. The Steelers really need to game plan and hide their true intentions. Let Brady think one thing, and be sure to do something completely different. Along those same lines, Butler has to come up with a game plan that is constantly changing throughout the game. One thing we can't do is stop using the speed and sit back on any lead.

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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:13 pm

@solardave wrote:


I agree Cockrell has played better than Gay but I think he makes as many mistakes as Burns. He misses tackles often and he seems to over pursue on screens leaving Gay or Davis and even Timmons to have to run guys down from behind. I just don't see him being real consistent. Maybe I'm asking too much.

OK, but most of the season I remember thinking of who played well and we saw Cockrell have a lot of solid games against good teams like the Cowboys, Patriots*, Bengals etc. Again, I see him sometimes starting with a 7 yd cushion and still maintaining that cushion downfield too long, so he's late to challenge a 12 yard dig route.

Here is a writeup from PFF where they ranked him as the top CB performer in Week 13 vs the Colts.
-Cornerbacks: Ross Cockrell, Steelers (+3.0) and Kyle Fuller, Bears (+2.8)

2014 fourth-rounder Cockrell isn’t a guy who gets a lot of press, but he’s carved out a role for himself in Pittsburgh. Five times the Colts targeted him, and he broke up as many balls as he allowed to be completed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Stopping A.J. Green was the top priority for Pittsburgh’s defense, especially after Green torched Darrelle Revis and the Jets last week. CB Ross Cockrell was excellent, limiting Green to two catches for 38 yards on six attempts


https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-cin-pit-grades-running-game-helps-fuel-steelers-win/

Sure Cockrell has had some tough games, but some of the best WR's in the NFL are going to catch some footballs. Its not like anybody erases one player weekly. Heck, Marcus Peters is a pro bowler and he got torched the first time the Steelers played. IMO Cockrell is solid and needs a new contract. Burns has all the ability and if he can keep getting better that is a decent CB pairing for the next 3-4 years.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:24 pm

I'd take Cockrell's worst day ever over Blake. I would like to know the story behind Justin Gilbert and whether that was an experiment gone wrong or if we may get something out of him.
All things considered the arrow is for sure pointing up. Next year will be interesting to say the least if Golsen comes back healthy. Talk about really bad luck there. I'll say this. We are not old and slow anymore.
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SteelerFreak58

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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:37 pm

It sure will be nice when we can have a pass rusher to take over for Harrison in replacing Jarvis "Bust" Jones.... Dupree is the real deal when he is healthy we need someone on the other side to generate more pressure. Once that happens this Defense will be back to dominating the league for years to come.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:42 pm

@effyou515 wrote:
look at the old clips and compare the 70s Steelers defense to today's Steelers defense.





the 70s Steelers defense was more about quickness and speed to stop the run and quickness and speed to rush the QB.

In today's game a little different but it's kinda the same quickness on the inside and speed on the outside.

quickness on the inside ties up blockers for the speed on the outside.

the 70s Steelers defense wasn't big but it was quicker like when Don Shula was the head coach of the colts and Noll was his defensive coordinator. Noll a LB coach from Sid Gillman's AFL high flying offense.


Thanks for posting these! Once I clicked on the first video last night, I couldn't get up from my chair. I ended up watching the whole damn game, commercials included.    I love how fast the games moved and straight to the point those commercials were. Nowadays, I have to get up and go do something for 3 minutes when the commercials come on or else I feel like I am getting "dumbed down" with some bullshit. I need to find more of these old games from the 70's. The older the better!

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effyou515



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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:26 am

@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
@ImmaculateGreenePolamalu wrote:
What's interesting is Tomlin is heavily influenced by Dungy and Dungy has said that his defenses were heavily influenced by the Steel Curtain defenses. I'm definitely not as knowledgeable about the little intricacies of defense like many of you are. It seems to me that Tomlin has some parts of his defense that are Lebeau inspired and others that are Dungy. We've been seeing his vision on the defense come to light since the old war horses like Polamalu, Aaron Smith, Keisel, Casey Hampton, Ike Taylor, and others have retired. There's been some growing pains along the way but I personally feel good about the defense's future with guys like Burns, Davis, Hargrave, Dupree,  Shazier, Tuitt, and Heyward.  The one big difference I see between Butler's defense and Lebeau's is that turnovers are a bigger part of what Keith looks for in evaluating talent and Butler is far willing to play rookies. We have three defenders in our defense and we're a playoff team. That gives me reason for optimism since I think Burns, Davis, and Hargrave can all improve.

I don't think that LeBeau didn't want guys that get turnovers or Butler looks for guys that get turnovers.  Sean Davis only had 3 INT in 2015 at Maryland.  Some of LeBeau's defenses in the 2005-2010 I bet were productive in the turnover ratio.  And its not like LeBeau didn't like to play rookies, it was just that his schemes often disguised pre snap and took more time to learn, PLUS the Steelers had a succession plan of guys and it wasn't a fire drill to get players like now.

The recent Steelers teams havent had the depth and they have been trying to push talented rookies to start earlier.  McCullers wasn't beating out Hargrave, the injury to Golson meant that Davis had to start in the slot because he was farther along than Burns.  I think we saw Shazier starting right away, when he wasn't injured and there was a conscious effort to try and get Jarvis Jones more time as a rookie, but again he was injured and terrible.
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There is a good core of young talent on the defensive side of the ball, but the cap crunch will come soon enough.  Shazier, Tuitt, Cockrell will need new contracts, as will AB, Bell and Villanueva on the offensive side of the ball.  Tough decisions to make and Timmons, Mitchell and Gay might not be around much longer.  

Salary Cap, read somewhere its part of the design of the new Steelers defense from the front office to Tomlin and one of the reasons Butler was hired as DC to have a flexable defense and get the talent on the field as soon as possible.

when come contract time the front office has seen more of the players on the field then the old way when they sat on the bench most of their first contract which should help them decide who to keep and who to let go.

imo one of the reason Tomlin was hired was the link to the past, I watched how Dungy built Tampa Bays defense and he told his young fast player on defense how to play their positions using 70s Steelers player references. Dungy has said many times he ran his practices a lot like coach Noll. Dungy add his ideals to better the defense now Tomlin and Butler are adding their ideals to defense.

the 70s steelers front 4 defense was the first to use all fast athletic d-line and the first to use LBs who were as good at stopping the run as the were at dropping into coverage Jack Ham was the best and Lambert could get down field faster and deeper then any LB before him Andy Russell was one of the smartest LBs to ever play the game. Mel Blunt was the first big fast shut down CB that every team wants now (Mel Blunt Rule).

As you young ones who only know and liked the Cowher smashmouth defense I liked it too but it had a weak spot like the Bears 46 defense and the Patriots* exploited it big time.

now it's up to the front office to find where ever they are and draft these raw fast / quick player and the coaching staff to coach up these players to replace the players the Steelers will lose because of the salary cap.

hope this make a little cents been drinking some beers

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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:50 am

@Jazzo wrote:
@effyou515 wrote:
look at the old clips and compare the 70s Steelers defense to today's Steelers defense.





the 70s Steelers defense was more about quickness and speed to stop the run and quickness and speed to rush the QB.

In today's game a little different but it's kinda the same quickness on the inside and speed on the outside.

quickness on the inside ties up blockers for the speed on the outside.

the 70s Steelers defense wasn't big but it was quicker like when Don Shula was the head coach of the colts and Noll was his defensive coordinator. Noll a LB coach from Sid Gillman's AFL high flying offense.


Thanks for posting these! Once I clicked on the first video last night, I couldn't get up from my chair. I ended up watching the whole damn game, commercials included.    I love how fast the games moved and straight to the point those commercials were. Nowadays, I have to get up and go do something for 3 minutes when the commercials come on or else I feel like I am getting "dumbed down" with some bullshit. I need to find more of these old games from the 70's. The older the better!

Raiders vs Dolphins I think this is the year Madden said that game was the Superbowl. Great talent on both sides of the ball but in imo the Steelers were the better football machine x's and o's both teams were equal in talent but the Raiders were more individualism as a team and the Steelers were more of a younger what ever it takes team.

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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:19 am

effyou515, Keith Butler has been waiting in the wings for Dick LeBeau to retire for many years now. I don't think he was hired to put young guys on the field any faster, because if that was the motivation, then the Steelers would have let LeBeau go 10 years ago. They paid Butler a coordinator salary while he was a LB coach, in part to keep him from taking other coordinator offers and leaving.

Tomlin met Keith Butler in Memphis in 1996 when Tomlin was a grad assistant DB coach and Butler was the Linebacker coach. They have had a friendship since then and it was before Tomlin ever coached under Tony Dungy.

Here is a good article that documents Butler's relationship with Tomlin, his coaching journey and the fact that he has kept the base 3-4 he learned under LeBeau, but altered it a bit.

http://www.pittsburghmagazine.com/Pittsburgh-Magazine/December-2015/Why-Steelers-Chose-Keith-Butler-to-Succeed-Dick-LeBeau/
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:34 am

@El-Gonzo Jackson wrote:
effyou515, Keith Butler has been waiting in the wings for Dick LeBeau to retire for many years now.  I don't think he was hired to put young guys on the field any faster, because if that was the motivation, then the Steelers would have let LeBeau go 10 years ago.  They paid Butler a coordinator salary while he was a LB coach, in part to keep him from taking other coordinator offers and leaving.

Tomlin met Keith Butler in Memphis in 1996 when Tomlin was a grad assistant DB coach and Butler was the Linebacker coach.  They have had a friendship since then and it was before Tomlin ever coached under Tony Dungy.  

Here is a good article that documents Butler's relationship with Tomlin, his coaching journey and the fact that he has kept the base 3-4 he learned under LeBeau, but altered it a bit.  

http://www.pittsburghmagazine.com/Pittsburgh-Magazine/December-2015/Why-Steelers-Chose-Keith-Butler-to-Succeed-Dick-LeBeau/

why replace LeBeau 10 years ago and f up a very good and the salary cap? like the Steelers did they kept that defense together for as long as they could maybe a little to long. I know the history if the front office didn't like him Butler would be gone as people can tell they liked him as soon as LeBeau's players were gone LeBeau was retired.

this new defense has to be more salary cap friendly get young players on the field sooner to better replace the players they loss do to the salary cap and not over paying for some players. Tomlin has a good eye for DBs which is needed pay for your front 7 and keep rotating in young talented DBs for the DBs the lose as free agents.

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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:07 pm

I feel bad for Thomas. He had tough shoes to fill replacing Troy. I'm saying that's necessary why he didn't take off but I do think Davis is fortunate in the sense that he wasn't replacing Troy. That said, Sean is a really smart kid. I remember being really impressed hearing he took Mandarin as his university language. I know that doesn't sound relevant to football but that to me spoke to two things) One his intelligence and ability to learn a playbook and two it showed me a kid who loves a challenge. We're drafting some good pieces on D. Can't wait to see how we continue to build on it. The new young guys like Shazier, Tuitt, and others are becoming some of my favorites. I'll always have a soft spot for the old guard but these guys are here and they look legit.
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PostSubject: Re: Team speed on defense   Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:45 pm

@ImmaculateGreenePolamalu wrote:
I feel bad for Thomas. He had tough shoes to fill replacing Troy. I'm saying that's necessary why he didn't take off but I do think Davis is fortunate in the sense that he wasn't replacing Troy. That said, Sean is a really smart kid. I remember being really impressed hearing he took Mandarin as his university language. I know that doesn't sound relevant to football but that to me spoke to two things) One his intelligence and ability to learn a playbook and two it showed me a kid who loves a challenge.  We're drafting some good pieces on D. Can't wait to see how we continue to build on it. The new young guys like Shazier, Tuitt, and others are becoming some of my favorites. I'll always have a soft spot for the old guard but these guys are here and they look legit.

Thomas didn't have to replace Troy, he had to be better than Will Allen or Robert Golden and he wasn't. In fact, he is in his 4th season and he cant beat Dangerfield on the depth chart. Pretty much the epitome of a bust. Team trades up to get to a spot to draft Shamarko Thomas and he cant even be the #4 Safety on the roster.
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