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 Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem

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LambertWardSteel



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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:44 am

To my understanding the crux of the Anthem movement was police brutality and/or killings. The numbers posted here are telling because the way things have been presented via the NFL protests it seemed this issue was egregious. A 2 to 1 margin white deaths to black leads me to believe the likelihood is low that there is a lot of inappropriate police activity. If the goal here is that no blacks are shot by police be careful what you wish for. Black, white, Martian, or whatever, the police are in place to protect us from lawbreakers. If someone of any race is willing to pull a gun on a cop they're likely willing to use the same gun in a bank robbery or home invasion, I want the police officer to respond and shoot back if there is no other recourse otherwise the criminal may end up shooting at someone who doesn't have a gun.

BK: I've not walked in a black man's shoes so I can't speak of that experience. However, if we're just talking about being treated poorly by police...and if that is the actual reason for the protests. I am a white male married to white woman. I'm a veterinarian, she is an accountant, so we don't exactly look like troublemakers. We live in the middle of Amish country PA so not a very high crime area. Last December we were jogging thru the town park which has a dawn to dusk curfew. We misjudged the run and ended about 5 minutes from the exit when it turned dark. We were stopped and accosted is the best word for it, by a PA State Trooper for 45 minutes. We apologized and said we misjudged the time. He threatened fines, he told us not to be making sudden moves or he'd handcuff us for his protection, he asked all kinds of drug questions (this is not considered a drug area, nor are we, or do we look like drug users), he kept shining a piecing penlight into our eyes. I was getting pretty pissy about the situation because it was obvious we were joggers and we misjudged the time. In the end he left us go but escorted us out of the park and warned of his wrath if he caught us again.



I respect each individual person...NFL player or otherwise to stand or kneel on whichever side of the fence they choose. From my own NFL perspective, though, I am a little tired of this and just want to see the game.  While I am not forced to stand to the flag everyday before work it also would not be tolerated for me to make a personal protest in front of a client before each appointment. These guys are using national media coverage meant to broadcast an NFL game to their own end. Where were all these guys this past summer and spring when they had the free time to use their fame to further their cause? Why weren't they out leading rallies in the communities they live in? Where was Kapernick before he kneeled at the preseason game last year? Watt didn't kneel at any games, or to my knowledge wear any headbands on televised games with "give to hurricane relief" to raise awareness and money for hurricane victims...he had media coverage but basically he used his stature and worked to raise a lot of money.

I just wonder how far it all goes, at some point the protests will become less shocking and garner less media coverage...does it get to the point where we have sit down strikes midway thru the 4th Quarter, or maybe they just sit the game out at halftime. At that point this fan will start protesting the anthem and all 4 quarters of NFL games.
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IowaSteeler927

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:23 am

LambertWardSteel wrote:
To my understanding the crux of the Anthem movement was police brutality and/or killings. The numbers posted here are telling because the way things have been presented via the NFL protests it seemed this issue was egregious. A 2 to 1 margin white deaths to black leads me to believe the likelihood is low that there is a lot of inappropriate police activity. If the goal here is that no blacks are shot by police be careful what you wish for. Black, white, Martian, or whatever, the police are in place to protect us from lawbreakers. If someone of any race is willing to pull a gun on a cop they're likely willing to use the same gun in a bank robbery or home invasion, I want the police officer to respond and shoot back if there is no other recourse otherwise the criminal may end up shooting at someone who doesn't have a gun.

BK: I've not walked in a black man's shoes so I can't speak of that experience. However, if we're just talking about being treated poorly by police...and if that is the actual reason for the protests. I am a white male married to white woman. I'm a veterinarian, she is an accountant, so we don't exactly look like troublemakers. We live in the middle of Amish country PA so not a very high crime area. Last December we were jogging thru the town park which has a dawn to dusk curfew. We misjudged the run and ended about 5 minutes from the exit when it turned dark. We were stopped and accosted is the best word for it, by a PA State Trooper for 45 minutes. We apologized and said we misjudged the time. He threatened fines, he told us not to be making sudden moves or he'd handcuff us for his protection, he asked all kinds of drug questions (this is not considered a drug area, nor are we, or do we look like drug users), he kept shining a piecing penlight into our eyes. I was getting pretty pissy about the situation because it was obvious we were joggers and we misjudged the time. In the end he left us go but escorted us out of the park and warned of his wrath if he caught us again.



I respect each individual person...NFL player or otherwise to stand or kneel on whichever side of the fence they choose. From my own NFL perspective, though, I am a little tired of this and just want to see the game.  While I am not forced to stand to the flag everyday before work it also would not be tolerated for me to make a personal protest in front of a client before each appointment. These guys are using national media coverage meant to broadcast an NFL game to their own end. Where were all these guys this past summer and spring when they had the free time to use their fame to further their cause? Why weren't they out leading rallies in the communities they live in? Where was Kapernick before he kneeled at the preseason game last year? Watt didn't kneel at any games, or to my knowledge wear any headbands on televised games with "give to hurricane relief" to raise awareness and money for hurricane victims...he had media coverage but basically he used his stature and worked to raise a lot of money.

I just wonder how far it all goes, at some point the protests will become less shocking and garner less media coverage...does it get to the point where we have sit down strikes midway thru the 4th Quarter, or maybe they just sit the game out at halftime. At that point this fan will start protesting the anthem and all 4 quarters of NFL games.

Well said. I think a lot of people just expect that every police officer that gets hired is going to be the nicest person on Earth. As with any other profession however, there are always going to be bad people that end up getting a job, that happens in law enforcement just like it does anywhere else. I think people forget at times that Officers are just as human and imperfect as anyone else. They're not robots without emotions, and they're asked to do a job that most people wouldn't want or would refuse to do.

Just as much as anyone I want the bad apples to be removed from the profession and I am all for prosecuting those who do wrong, especially when they do wrong while wearing a badge. That being said, this narrative that the police are out as a group systematically sticking it to only black people is just ridiculous.

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Wallace108

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:30 am

BKAnthem wrote:
CK protests are about the fact that it seemingly hasn't changed much in all these years, because there actually was a time when Police/Sheriffs were hunting down and killing black people, especially in the south. It's not as prevalent as it was back then because of new civil rights laws, but that still makes some black folks more sensitive to it anytime it happens.

Fair point. I'm certainly not going to tell black people that they're wrong to feel the way they do. I get it. But how much of the current thinking is reality, and how much is perception?

"Each of us tends to think we see things as they are, that we are objective. But this is not the case. We see the world, not as it is, but as we are - or, as we are conditioned to see it."
--Stephen Covey


Quick story. When I was in college, I worked at a department store. One day while I was bagging, a middle-age black woman came through the line, purchasing a large plastic container. The white cashier took the lid off the container and looked inside.

The black customer loudly and angrily said, "Oh! You think I'm stealing something because I'm black. You wouldn't do that if I was white."

What the black customer didn't realize was that our store pilicy was to open and check any container that can be used to conceal other items. The cashiers did it for all customers, regardless of race. The black customer's perception was that she was being treated unfairly because of the color of her skin. In reality, she was being treated just like all customers. She saw racism where none existed.

I'm not naive or stupid, I'm aware of the injustices blacks have faced throughout our country's history. And I'm aware that injustices still occur today. And when they occur, the person committing the injustice needs to be held accountable. But it's important to know ... how many of the injustices are reality, and how many are perception?

I fully understand, because of what happened in the past, why blacks have a negative view of cops. But the view isn't always reality. And sometimes it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

While it's important to bring attention to injustices (such as the Eric Garner case), the problem is actually made worse when outrage follows a justifiable shooting (such as the Mike Brown case).

BKAnthem wrote:
what incenses me to no end  are the people who start yelling about " Black on Black crime" or " No Dad in the Home", that's what we should be protesting, Like we aren't addressing these issues already, yes i take that personally.

Our experiences give us different views ... and sometimes different frustrations. You're right ... those issues ARE being addressed in black communities. The problem is that the efforts largely go unnoticed. And that's the media's fault. I work in the media, and I assure you we need to do better in a lot of areas.

Man, I really wish you and I could sit down together, have some beers, and have this conversation face to face rather than on an Internet forum. ...

I'll respond to some of your other comments when I'm less exhausted.

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kirklandrules

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:54 am

I'm personally offended anytime someone in power uses their position to bully or harm others (physically, emotionally, monetarily, etc). It's heartbreaking when the incident leads to injury or death, regardless of the victim's race. It's the stink on sh!t when the offending bully acts out of racism even if numbers suggest this is not the most common occurrence of abuse of power.

I blame our politicians and media for the divisive nature of our country today. The NFL players, fans and general citizens are being played like fools by these two groups as they gain off the disruption it causes. Using the National Anthem as a time to protest police brutality really isn't well thought out. Kaepernick saying he's not proud of his country because of specific police brutality is certainly legitimate, but kneeling during the Anthem is disrespectful and takes away from his message. O.k. he's young and stupid, time for him and everyone else to spend time figuring out how to fix the issue and not just "calling attention" to the problem. NFL players, owners, coaches, fans, whites, blacks, Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, and Eskimos need to stop the finger point across the divide and hold out a hand to bring people together. We're America and we're better than being divided by self-serving d-bags smoking their cigars and laughing at us
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Fire Arians

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:22 pm

I guess there's a ton of fake Patriots** on facebook. For almost an entire week, I've seen endless posts of how people are never watching a game and throwing away their steelers stuff. and I've been constantly asking if anyone had tickets / memorabilia they wanted to sell and I got no takers. all talk and no walk, i bet those jagoffs don't even stand for the flag when the anthem is played either

The ironic thing of it all, is these same people are saying not standing is a slap in the face to all the soldiers and servicemen/servicewomen. However, most responses I've seen from veterans are supporters of having free speech, maybe they should listen to what veterans are saying on this instead of trying to be all rah rah captain america about this BS? lol.
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effyou515



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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:47 pm

maybe these nfl players should do a ride along with these police officers who patrol the ruffer parts of town and see first hand what it is like putting your life on the line.



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Wallace108

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:00 pm

Fire Arians wrote:
most responses I've seen from veterans are supporters of having free speech, maybe they should listen to what veterans are saying on this instead of trying to be all rah rah captain america about this BS? lol.

Based on the responses I've seen, I'd say upwards of 70 percent of veterans don't like the protests. At the very least, it's evenly split, just like the general population. Just a few headlines ...


Local veterans' orgs mull pulling the plug on NFL broadcasts amid national anthem debate

What do veterans think about kneeling during the anthem? Views are diverse.

NFL anthem debate stirs emotions among Fox Valley veterans

Veterans groups slam NFL players who kneel during anthem

Vets go to war with NFL over 'take-a-knee' protests
-------------------------

I took a guess at the 70 percent figure. I just saw a poll on militarytimes.com, and the percentage is exactly 70 percent. Admittedly, it's not a scientific poll.

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SteelerFreak58

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:54 pm

As a Vet any form of forced Patriotism is simply an act of totalitarianism in disguise.
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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:59 pm

There are an estimated 1.2 million law enforcement in this country from the last FBI numbers. If you say just 5 percent of those numbers are bad cops (mentally unstable, blatantly racist, overly aggressive, steroid abusers, drug or alcohol addicts, or engaged in criminal activity themselves) you end up with 60,000 cops out there that shouldn't be wearing a badge. Think about that for a minute.
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Wallace108

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:56 pm

SteelerFreak58 wrote:
As a Vet any form of forced Patriotism is simply an act of totalitarianism in disguise.

Only if the government is the one doing the forcing through laws.

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solardave

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:05 am

kirklandrules wrote:
I'm personally offended anytime someone in power uses their position to bully or harm others (physically, emotionally, monetarily, etc). It's heartbreaking when the incident leads to injury or death, regardless of the victim's race. It's the stink on sh!t when the offending bully acts out of racism even if numbers suggest this is not the most common occurrence of abuse of power.

I blame our politicians and media for the divisive nature of our country today. The NFL players, fans and general citizens are being played like fools by these two groups as they gain off the disruption it causes. Using the National Anthem as a time to protest police brutality really isn't well thought out. Kaepernick saying he's not proud of his country because of specific police brutality is certainly legitimate, but kneeling during the Anthem is disrespectful and takes away from his message. O.k. he's young and stupid, time for him and everyone else to spend time figuring out how to fix the issue and not just "calling attention" to the problem. NFL players, owners, coaches, fans, whites, blacks, Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, and Eskimos need to stop the finger point across the divide and hold out a hand to bring people together. We're America and we're better than being divided by self-serving d-bags smoking their cigars and laughing at us


Believe me our present government is not forcing patriotism, They along with the press are busy working hard to keep us all divided. It's the old "divide and conquer" strategy.

If you want to know who controls our media outlets and our government do a little research on these families:

1) Rothschild

2) Rockefeller

3) Hearst

4) Cox

5) Cargill- MacMillan

6) Mars

6) Bush

You rarely hear about these people in the news and what they've been up to by design.

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IowaSteeler927

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:59 am

SteelerFreak58 wrote:
There are an estimated 1.2 million law enforcement in this country from the last FBI numbers. If you say just 5 percent of those numbers are bad cops (mentally unstable, blatantly racist, overly aggressive, steroid abusers, drug or alcohol addicts, or engaged in criminal activity themselves) you end up with 60,000 cops out there that shouldn't be wearing a badge. Think about that for a minute.

I guarantee that number is far, far less than 5%. It's probably well under 1%. To say 5% of police are any of the above is a gross over-estimation. I'm more worried by the public at large than I'd ever be about a police officer. The hiring process to become a police officer in most places is ridiculous. It took me 6 months just to get hired as a Detention Officer where I work. I went through a Psychological Exam (MMPI), Polygraph Test, Background Check, Criminal History check, multiple interviews, a 4 Week FTO training program, 3 Weeks of Jail School, a 6 month probationary period, and a pretty rigorous physical testing and our hiring process still isn't as in depth as the one is for the guys out on patrol. They have to go through weeks and weeks of academy on top of everything else, then a long probationary period where they are under the constant and watchful scrutiny of an FTO. They mess up in Academy, they're done. They mess up while in FTO, they're done. I've seen a ton of guys flunk out, guys that used to work with me who put in to be deputies, were very good officers, and they still failed. It's far more in depth than just about any other profession out there. So I very highly doubt we have 60,000 officers out there that are total scumbags. That's unrealistic to anyone except people who patently hate the police and are totally and utterly biased against them to begin with.

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solardave

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:44 am

IowaSteeler927 wrote:
SteelerFreak58 wrote:
There are an estimated 1.2 million law enforcement in this country from the last FBI numbers. If you say just 5 percent of those numbers are bad cops (mentally unstable, blatantly racist, overly aggressive, steroid abusers, drug or alcohol addicts, or engaged in criminal activity themselves) you end up with 60,000 cops out there that shouldn't be wearing a badge. Think about that for a minute.

I guarantee that number is far, far less than 5%. It's probably well under 1%. To say 5% of police are any of the above is a gross over-estimation. I'm more worried by the public at large than I'd ever be about a police officer. The hiring process to become a police officer in most places is ridiculous. It took me 6 months just to get hired as a Detention Officer where I work. I went through a Psychological Exam (MMPI), Polygraph Test, Background Check, Criminal History check, multiple interviews, a 4 Week FTO training program, 3 Weeks of Jail School, a 6 month probationary period, and a pretty rigorous physical testing and our hiring process still isn't as in depth as the one is for the guys out on patrol. They have to go through weeks and weeks of academy on top of everything else, then a long probationary period where they are under the constant and watchful scrutiny of an FTO. They mess up in Academy, they're done. They mess up while in FTO, they're done. I've seen a ton of guys flunk out, guys that used to work with me who put in to be deputies, were very good officers, and they still failed. It's far more in depth than just about any other profession out there. So I very highly doubt we have 60,000 officers out there that are total scumbags. That's unrealistic to anyone except people who patently hate the police and are totally and utterly biased against them to begin with.

I was thinking the same thing about the 5% being a big stretch. I said this before when I was young I did a lot of dumb shit. I drank a lot and had a history with local law enforcement to say the least. I haven't drank in almost 40 years and have not been arrested once in almost 40 years. I've had one ticket for no proof of insurance in the vehicle 25 years ago and when I produced proof it was dropped. I've been pulled over for speeding on more than one occasion. Since I treated the officer the way I'd like to be treated (I suspect this was the case) I got off with a warning.

I don't envy cops and I have come to respect the tough job they have. This was not the case when I was young. I always thought it was them picking on me but today I know I brought it on myself.
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FrancoLambert



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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:04 am

Even if the percentage of "bad cops" is half of 5%, it's still too many for a job where that individual holds all of the power in a police-civilian encounter.

When it becomes a "he said," "she said" deal, guess whose story wins most of the time. And we wonder why more and more people distrust the police.

IMO police forces have become somewhat like paramilitary outfits....unfortunately, some of it born out of necessity due to terrorism and hyper-violent criminals.

We look for reasons as to why we are so divided in this country...the media fuels it, the president fuels it.  Definitely contributory, but I see it more as an inherent flaw in human beings.

Give any individual the "power" over others and there's a very good chance that the power will be abused.

The veneer of civilization is getting thinner.



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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:43 pm

solardave wrote:
kirklandrules wrote:
I'm personally offended anytime someone in power uses their position to bully or harm others (physically, emotionally, monetarily, etc). It's heartbreaking when the incident leads to injury or death, regardless of the victim's race. It's the stink on sh!t when the offending bully acts out of racism even if numbers suggest this is not the most common occurrence of abuse of power.

I blame our politicians and media for the divisive nature of our country today. The NFL players, fans and general citizens are being played like fools by these two groups as they gain off the disruption it causes. Using the National Anthem as a time to protest police brutality really isn't well thought out. Kaepernick saying he's not proud of his country because of specific police brutality is certainly legitimate, but kneeling during the Anthem is disrespectful and takes away from his message. O.k. he's young and stupid, time for him and everyone else to spend time figuring out how to fix the issue and not just "calling attention" to the problem. NFL players, owners, coaches, fans, whites, blacks, Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, and Eskimos need to stop the finger point across the divide and hold out a hand to bring people together. We're America and we're better than being divided by self-serving d-bags smoking their cigars and laughing at us


Believe me our present government is not forcing patriotism, They along with the press are busy working hard to keep us all divided. It's the old "divide and conquer" strategy.

If you want to know who controls our media outlets and our government do a little research on these families:

1) Rothschild

2) Rockefeller

3) Hearst

4) Cox

5) Cargill- MacMillan

6) Mars

6) Bush

You rarely hear about these people in the news and what they've been up to by design.


You missed one.

Soros.

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Wallace108

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:10 pm

Mach1 wrote:
You missed one.

Soros.

He should be at the top of the list.

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IowaSteeler927

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:47 pm

FrancoLambert wrote:
Even if the percentage of "bad cops" is half of 5%, it's still too many for a job where that individual holds all of the power in a police-civilian encounter.

When it becomes a "he said," "she said" deal, guess whose story wins most of the time.  And we wonder why more and more people distrust the police.

IMO police forces have become somewhat like paramilitary outfits....unfortunately, some of it born out of necessity due to terrorism and hyper-violent criminals.

We look for reasons as to why we are so divided in this country...the media fuels it, the president fuels it.  Definitely contributory, but I see it more as an inherent flaw in human beings.

Give any individual the "power" over others and there's a very good chance that the power will be abused.

The veneer of civilization is getting thinner.

 


Police are paramilitary? So they carry rocket launchers, frag grenades, .50 caliber air cooled machine guns, and drive around in M1 Abrams tanks? I love the ridiculousness of the paramilitary argument, like how dare the police carry gear that protects them, and the lives of others. How dare they carry guns that allow them to deal with criminals that are better armed than ever.

Let's take away their rifles, vests, and armored trucks then criminals will be emboldened, better armed, and they'll pull stunts like the LA Bank Robbers did where they stood there an unloaded drum magazine equipped AKs on a hapless LAPD that sat there shooting back with Beretta 9mms.

Seriously every cop needs to just not show up to work for a week. See how many people we have complaining about them being paramilitary after that.

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:15 am

Mach1 wrote:
solardave wrote:
kirklandrules wrote:
I'm personally offended anytime someone in power uses their position to bully or harm others (physically, emotionally, monetarily, etc). It's heartbreaking when the incident leads to injury or death, regardless of the victim's race. It's the stink on sh!t when the offending bully acts out of racism even if numbers suggest this is not the most common occurrence of abuse of power.

I blame our politicians and media for the divisive nature of our country today. The NFL players, fans and general citizens are being played like fools by these two groups as they gain off the disruption it causes. Using the National Anthem as a time to protest police brutality really isn't well thought out. Kaepernick saying he's not proud of his country because of specific police brutality is certainly legitimate, but kneeling during the Anthem is disrespectful and takes away from his message. O.k. he's young and stupid, time for him and everyone else to spend time figuring out how to fix the issue and not just "calling attention" to the problem. NFL players, owners, coaches, fans, whites, blacks, Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, and Eskimos need to stop the finger point across the divide and hold out a hand to bring people together. We're America and we're better than being divided by self-serving d-bags smoking their cigars and laughing at us


Believe me our present government is not forcing patriotism, They along with the press are busy working hard to keep us all divided. It's the old "divide and conquer" strategy.

If you want to know who controls our media outlets and our government do a little research on these families:

1) Rothschild

2) Rockefeller

3) Hearst

4) Cox

5) Cargill- MacMillan

6) Mars

6) Bush

You rarely hear about these people in the news and what they've been up to by design.


You missed one.

Soros.

Right. How did I miss that evil bastard?
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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:48 am

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FrancoLambert



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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:07 am

IowaSteeler927 wrote:
FrancoLambert wrote:
Even if the percentage of "bad cops" is half of 5%, it's still too many for a job where that individual holds all of the power in a police-civilian encounter.

When it becomes a "he said," "she said" deal, guess whose story wins most of the time.  And we wonder why more and more people distrust the police.

IMO police forces have become somewhat like paramilitary outfits....unfortunately, some of it born out of necessity due to terrorism and hyper-violent criminals.

We look for reasons as to why we are so divided in this country...the media fuels it, the president fuels it.  Definitely contributory, but I see it more as an inherent flaw in human beings.

Give any individual the "power" over others and there's a very good chance that the power will be abused.

The veneer of civilization is getting thinner.

 


Police are paramilitary? So they carry rocket launchers, frag grenades, .50 caliber air cooled machine guns, and drive around in M1 Abrams tanks? I love the ridiculousness of the paramilitary argument, like how dare the police carry gear that protects them, and the lives of others. How dare they carry guns that allow them to deal with criminals that are better armed than ever.

Let's take away their rifles, vests, and armored trucks then criminals will be emboldened, better armed, and they'll pull stunts like the LA Bank Robbers did where they stood there an unloaded drum magazine equipped AKs on a hapless LAPD that sat there shooting back with Beretta 9mms.

Seriously every cop needs to just not show up to work for a week. See how many people we have complaining about them being paramilitary after that.


Yes to question 1.  No to question 2.

You missed some of my point.  Unfortunately and tragically, the police NEED to be equipped as a paramilitary outfit nowadays.  As you stated the bad guys are using much more than a .38 caliber nowadays during crimes or acts of terrorism.  It would be sheer madness not to equip a police force sufficiently to nullify what the criminals can get their hands on.  However, the mindset and preparation for dealing with violent criminals and potential terrorists carries over to dealings with the average citizen.

An example: my son was pulled over late one night (a fishing expedition) because an officer "thought something was hanging from his rear view mirror that would impair his vision while driving." He was not speeding and there were no equipment violations.  This was a definite abuse of power that is almost impossible for the average citizen to question. Before tearing the car apart and finding nothing, the officer asked my law abiding son if he had any bombs in his car.  How do you jump from a possible minor traffic violation to bombs hidden in a car unless you become conditioned to do so?  

My father, who was a police officer/detective for over 30 years in Newark, N.J (not exactly Mayberry), used to lament over how the role and mindset of the police officer changed over time.

And no, I wouldn't want the police to stage a strike and not show up for work; they are the only protection we have against criminals and terrorists.
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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:38 am

FrancoLambert wrote:
IowaSteeler927 wrote:
FrancoLambert wrote:
Even if the percentage of "bad cops" is half of 5%, it's still too many for a job where that individual holds all of the power in a police-civilian encounter.

When it becomes a "he said," "she said" deal, guess whose story wins most of the time.  And we wonder why more and more people distrust the police.

IMO police forces have become somewhat like paramilitary outfits....unfortunately, some of it born out of necessity due to terrorism and hyper-violent criminals.

We look for reasons as to why we are so divided in this country...the media fuels it, the president fuels it.  Definitely contributory, but I see it more as an inherent flaw in human beings.

Give any individual the "power" over others and there's a very good chance that the power will be abused.

The veneer of civilization is getting thinner.

 


Police are paramilitary? So they carry rocket launchers, frag grenades, .50 caliber air cooled machine guns, and drive around in M1 Abrams tanks? I love the ridiculousness of the paramilitary argument, like how dare the police carry gear that protects them, and the lives of others. How dare they carry guns that allow them to deal with criminals that are better armed than ever.

Let's take away their rifles, vests, and armored trucks then criminals will be emboldened, better armed, and they'll pull stunts like the LA Bank Robbers did where they stood there an unloaded drum magazine equipped AKs on a hapless LAPD that sat there shooting back with Beretta 9mms.

Seriously every cop needs to just not show up to work for a week. See how many people we have complaining about them being paramilitary after that.


Yes to question 1.  No to question 2.

You missed some of my point.  Unfortunately and tragically, the police NEED to be equipped as a paramilitary outfit nowadays.  As you stated the bad guys are using much more than a .38 caliber nowadays during crimes or acts of terrorism.  It would be sheer madness not to equip a police force sufficiently to nullify what the criminals can get their hands on.  However, the mindset and preparation for dealing with violent criminals and potential terrorists carries over to dealings with the average citizen.

An example: my son was pulled over late one night (a fishing expedition) because an officer "thought something was hanging from his rear view mirror that would impair his vision while driving." He was not speeding and there were no equipment violations.  This was a definite abuse of power that is almost impossible for the average citizen to question. Before tearing the car apart and finding nothing, the officer asked my law abiding son if he had any bombs in his car.  How do you jump from a possible minor traffic violation to bombs hidden in a car unless you become conditioned to do so?  

My father, who was a police officer/detective for over 30 years in Newark, N.J (not exactly Mayberry), used to lament over how the role and mindset of the police officer changed over time.

And no, I wouldn't want the police to stage a strike and not show up for work; they are the only protection we have against criminals and terrorists.

My brain is in game mode, not debate mode, but I'm jumping in to say that I agree with you on this. While I think police need adequate equipment to deal with serious threats, I've seen too many examples of the equipment, and training, being used in situations that didn't require it. It seems to me that it gets used for intimidation, which is not a tactic that should be used.

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IowaSteeler927

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:59 pm

FrancoLambert wrote:
IowaSteeler927 wrote:
FrancoLambert wrote:
Even if the percentage of "bad cops" is half of 5%, it's still too many for a job where that individual holds all of the power in a police-civilian encounter.

When it becomes a "he said," "she said" deal, guess whose story wins most of the time.  And we wonder why more and more people distrust the police.

IMO police forces have become somewhat like paramilitary outfits....unfortunately, some of it born out of necessity due to terrorism and hyper-violent criminals.

We look for reasons as to why we are so divided in this country...the media fuels it, the president fuels it.  Definitely contributory, but I see it more as an inherent flaw in human beings.

Give any individual the "power" over others and there's a very good chance that the power will be abused.

The veneer of civilization is getting thinner.

 


Police are paramilitary? So they carry rocket launchers, frag grenades, .50 caliber air cooled machine guns, and drive around in M1 Abrams tanks? I love the ridiculousness of the paramilitary argument, like how dare the police carry gear that protects them, and the lives of others. How dare they carry guns that allow them to deal with criminals that are better armed than ever.

Let's take away their rifles, vests, and armored trucks then criminals will be emboldened, better armed, and they'll pull stunts like the LA Bank Robbers did where they stood there an unloaded drum magazine equipped AKs on a hapless LAPD that sat there shooting back with Beretta 9mms.

Seriously every cop needs to just not show up to work for a week. See how many people we have complaining about them being paramilitary after that.


Yes to question 1.  No to question 2.

You missed some of my point.  Unfortunately and tragically, the police NEED to be equipped as a paramilitary outfit nowadays.  As you stated the bad guys are using much more than a .38 caliber nowadays during crimes or acts of terrorism.  It would be sheer madness not to equip a police force sufficiently to nullify what the criminals can get their hands on.  However, the mindset and preparation for dealing with violent criminals and potential terrorists carries over to dealings with the average citizen.

An example: my son was pulled over late one night (a fishing expedition) because an officer "thought something was hanging from his rear view mirror that would impair his vision while driving." He was not speeding and there were no equipment violations.  This was a definite abuse of power that is almost impossible for the average citizen to question. Before tearing the car apart and finding nothing, the officer asked my law abiding son if he had any bombs in his car.  How do you jump from a possible minor traffic violation to bombs hidden in a car unless you become conditioned to do so?  

My father, who was a police officer/detective for over 30 years in Newark, N.J (not exactly Mayberry), used to lament over how the role and mindset of the police officer changed over time.

And no, I wouldn't want the police to stage a strike and not show up for work; they are the only protection we have against criminals and terrorists.

Son should've told him no he couldn't search the vehicle. No probable cause, no search.

There's douchebags everywhere, some even manage to become cops. The vast majority though, do their jobs, and go above and beyond to help others.

To respond to Wally, it's not intimidation, it's called a "show of force". I have seen many a potentially volatile situation defused because an unruly subject sees a show of force and backs down. It doesn't always work, but it's one of the tools in police/correction's arsenal. It's like at my work, we might have an inmate who is ready to fight, when the response team gears up, sometimes seeing them en masse in their extraction gear is enough to defuse the situation in and of itself. That's a win when that happens. I do agree though, sometimes it doesn't need to be used and is used anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:46 am

Another thing that these National Anthem protests don't take into account is just how far we've actually come in the last 50 years. According to the Center for Juvenile and Criminal Justice, the number of black men under the age of 25 who have been killed by the police, justified or unjustified, decreased by 79% from 1968-2011, and 61% for black men ages 25 and older during that same period of time. In 1968, one out of four people killed by police was a black man under the age of 25; today it's one out of 10. That's significant progress, and it should not be ignored. And I believe these numbers can go even lower with some extra assistance from black communities themselves. If black men were arrested at the rate of white men, then the black male fatality rate at the hands of the police would likely be very similar to the white male rate. Black men still commit crime at a higher rate than white men, so part of the responsibility lies with them. Commit less crime, especially violent crime, and especially against the police themselves, and there will be even fewer deaths at the hands of the police.

On the police side, there are two things that I believe can go a long way in reducing civilian fatalities:


1. Cameras on the front (badge) and back of the outermost layer of clothing of every police officer, plus cameras on the front, back, and both sides of every police vehicle.

2. Special training in how to "read" people, similar to the military.


Having cameras will not only go a long way in producing evidence that can be used in court, but it'll also keep more people honest. When civilians know that they're on video, they're much more likely to be respectful and cooperative. Also, the police are less likely to be aggressive. As for how to read people, I think it's necessary in order to determine who really is a threat for violence and who isn't. If our military can figure out who the enemy combatants really are in a crowded place, then there has to be a way for police to read people well enough that they don't necessarily have to use force to diffuse a volatile situation. Many police officers who have successfully, and even heroically, diffused volatile situations are ex-military who have had training in how to read people. Conversely, many (most?) wrongful civilian fatalities have come at the hands of poorly- or inadequately-trained officers.
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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:35 pm

warning: if don't like the hearing the word nigga please do not watch.


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PostSubject: Re: Villanueva, Steelers, and the anthem   Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:02 am

Craziaskowboi wrote:
Another thing that these National Anthem protests don't take into account is just how far we've actually come in the last 50 years. According to the Center for Juvenile and Criminal Justice, the number of black men under the age of 25 who have been killed by the police, justified or unjustified, decreased by 79% from 1968-2011, and 61% for black men ages 25 and older during that same period of time. In 1968, one out of four people killed by police was a black man under the age of 25; today it's one out of 10. That's significant progress, and it should not be ignored. And I believe these numbers can go even lower with some extra assistance from black communities themselves. If black men were arrested at the rate of white men, then the black male fatality rate at the hands of the police would likely be very similar to the white male rate. Black men still commit crime at a higher rate than white men, so part of the responsibility lies with them. Commit less crime, especially violent crime, and especially against the police themselves, and there will be even fewer deaths at the hands of the police.

On the police side, there are two things that I believe can go a long way in reducing civilian fatalities:


1. Cameras on the front (badge) and back of the outermost layer of clothing of every police officer, plus cameras on the front, back, and both sides of every police vehicle.

2. Special training in how to "read" people, similar to the military.


Having cameras will not only go a long way in producing evidence that can be used in court, but it'll also keep more people honest. When civilians know that they're on video, they're much more likely to be respectful and cooperative. Also, the police are less likely to be aggressive. As for how to read people, I think it's necessary in order to determine who really is a threat for violence and who isn't. If our military can figure out who the enemy combatants really are in a crowded place, then there has to be a way for police to read people well enough that they don't necessarily have to use force to diffuse a volatile situation. Many police officers who have successfully, and even heroically, diffused volatile situations are ex-military who have had training in how to read people. Conversely, many (most?) wrongful civilian fatalities have come at the hands of poorly- or inadequately-trained officers.

Honestly police are getting more training than they've ever gotten before. Even in my job we're constantly getting new training. We have in-services 2-3 times a year and we take classes in everything from Mental Health, and Interpersonal Communications, to LGBTQ, to racial sensitivity. That's on top of our regular defensive tactics and that kind of stuff. I think it's a misconception that police/corrections are not trained enough. I'm sure that might be more of a problem with smaller departments where a lot of training doesn't always fit into their smaller budgets, but there is definitely a lot of training at larger offices like the one I work for.

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