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 It's Time To Move On From Tomlin

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Mach1
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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2018 2:04 pm

Those are all valid points but we already know what were going to get with Tomlin. Maybe a few more good players would be enough to get over the hump or the coaching is bad enough it wouldn't matter?
Tomlin isn't going anywhere so we shall see.

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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2018 2:41 pm

Not a Mark Madden fan most of the time but he sums it up on point here...

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/markmadden/14457319-74/mark-madden-blame-steelers-collapse-on-discipline-humility
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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2018 2:43 pm

@Wallace108 wrote:
I've avoided this thread as much as possible because I've been on the fence with Tomlin. In my view, the pros and cons are almost equal. But there's one thing that has kept me in the camp of keeping Tomlin .... Art Rooney.

When I hear other Steelers fans talk, sometimes I get the sense that many think nothing has changed about how the organization is run ... that the Steelers Way still exists. It doesn't. It died with Dan Rooney. Art and Dan aren't the same person. Dan was a football guy who grew up with the team. Art was a lawyer who inherited the team. Their backgrounds are not the same. The way they run the team is not the same. And the way they choose coaches will not be the same. Dan gave us Noll, Cowher, and Tomlin. We don't know who Art will give us. With guys like Tomlin and Colbert still there, Dan's fingerprints are still on the team. But when those guys are gone, it's completely Art's team. And my biggest fear is that Art will turn this team into the Browns. And not the late season 2018, exciting and promising Browns ... no, not those Browns ... I mean the other Browns.

So even as I type this, I'm still on the fence. I see what everyone else is seeing, and I can't disagree with all the complaints. But I also can't shake my deep distrust of Art Rooney. So while I agree with much of the reasoning for getting rid of Tomlin, there's some old advice that is relevant: Be careful what you wish for ...

I hadn't really thought of it from this aspect but this is a good point. I do think that keeping Tomlin after this year would show some of the traditional Rooney way because I believe a collapse like this would get most coaches fired.

The Rooney way is the one thing I've always said holds me back from firing. I like the stability, I like we've had 3 coaches in 50 years. In the end it works from the sense that all 3 of our coaches in the SB era have won SBs. I think the philosophy they've used, without the proper backing at the top, could produce bad results...I think with the wrong person at the helm it might make them 'too comfortable'. Maybe that's what happened here. Tomlin doesn't feel accountable to losing to bad teams, not hiring a guy for reviews, poor clock management, not motivating players, going for 2 from the 10 yard line in his first playoff game. If the only place he's held accountable is when meeting the press all he needs is his snippy smooth way of talking to get around that and he's done. He defiantly stands by everything he does then blames players for not executing in the postgame interview.

The winning record argument goes old for me when discussing him. This isn't Arizona or Cleveland we're talking about. Steelers=Super Bowls. Had he spent the last 14 years going 8-8 or 9-7 the argument would have no steam. Essentially that's what we're getting every year. Even if we make the playoffs it's usually one and done. 2 of the 3 playoff wins the past 10 years came against a backup QB and one that Burfict and the Bengals literally gave them. So, in the end, we are getting those winning years that make playoffs but they aren't much different than 8-8, or 9-6-1, and not making it.






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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2018 2:51 pm

@SteelerFreak58 wrote:
Not a  Mark Madden fan most of the time but he sums it up on point here...

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/markmadden/14457319-74/mark-madden-blame-steelers-collapse-on-discipline-humility

good article

Quote :
The season is a blurry nightmare of forced throws, missed kicks, dropped interceptions and linebackers covering wide receivers. It’s punctuated by moments of insanity, like tight end Xavier Grimble being too dumb to settle for scoring a touchdown at Denver, instead forcing his own fumble by running over a defender at the goal line. Don’t forget Roethlisberger’s five turnovers at Cleveland.

Quote :
There’s no point discussing Tomlin’s future. He stays, for sure. He had another winning season, after all. He never has had a losing year. Did you know that?

Quote :
ob security in perpetuity does not make Tomlin a better coach. It further convinces him he’s always right. At Baltimore, John Harbaugh’s seat was extremely hot. So he benched quarterback Joe Flacco in favor of Lamar Jackson, made his defense hyper-aggressive and the Ravens won six of their last seven. But even when the Steelers floundered, they kept doing the same things.

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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2018 3:04 pm

Interesting response from Ray Fittipaldo in his chat at Post Gazette:

Quote :
Steeler Joe: I really want to understand: Help me. Does Keith Butler manage the defense or Mike Tomlin? What role does Tomlin have--is he in charge of the secondary? If so, should the blame for defensive secondary miscommunication fall to him instead of Butler? There has been a lot of "nudge" and "wink" stuff from PG staffers about the defense, and who is really in charge, but I'd like to hear it out loud and clear. Would firing Butler really resolve the issue? Or is Tomlin the problem?

Ray Fittipaldo: I can tell you Mike Tomlin is more involved in the defense than he has ever been. He let it slip in the postgame news conference after the Patriots* game that he was too distracted by arguing with an official that he failed to communicate the correct call to the secondary on the play where Chris Hogan scored. That kind of went unnoticed, but I noticed it. So he is obviously involved to the point where he is communicating calls on the field. Whether that's directly to players or through another coach does not matter. Will Keith Butler become the scapegoat? Perhaps. But there is going to come a time where the buck stops with Tomlin. The Rooneys like coaching continuity, but there is also a time for change. It will be interesting to see what Art Rooney Ii does.


https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/12/31/Ray-Fittipaldo-s-Steelers-chat-12-31-18/stories/201812310093

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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2018 4:32 pm

Even more reason for Tomlin to go.

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nine vegetable



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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2018 4:59 pm

You guys might as well give up the ghost, Tomlin isn't going anywhere.

Better question might be "does Antonio Brown stay or go" considering his little stunt he pulled this week.
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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2018 8:37 pm

@nine vegetable wrote:
You guys might as well give up the ghost, Tomlin isn't going anywhere.

Better question might be "does Antonio Brown stay or go" considering his little stunt he pulled this week.

I think ABs gone but it will be a huge hit to the salary cap so I guess a trade is the only option.

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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2018 8:41 pm

@nine vegetable wrote:
You guys might as well give up the ghost, Tomlin isn't going anywhere.

Better question might be "does Antonio Brown stay or go" considering his little stunt he pulled this week.



I think ABs gone but it will be a huge hit to the salary cap so I guess a trade is the only option.

how about trade AB for a quality veteran defensive help or to trade up in the draft.

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nine vegetable



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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2018 8:49 pm

I'd take Khaleel Mack off the Bears' hands for him (yeah I know, never going to happen - but a guy can dream, right?)
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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 31, 2018 11:13 pm

It has been my opinion all along that this season would not cost Tomlin his job. Just missing the playoffs would not, even with the collapse responsible, it didn't seem enough with the way the Rooneys have always operated. You have to wonder, though, if the new AB situation is getting into the area of the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. At some point the guy in charge has to be held responsible for making serious playoff runs and at the same time controlling the team.

The Rooneys have the reputation of sticking with their head coach to a greater degree of loyalty than any NFL franchise, and, possibly any professional sports team. But, I always had the idea Noll's retirement was coerced, i.e., retire or fire, they seemed to be seriously considering firing Cowher at the end of the 90's. They seem to have a limit

The epic collapse this year did not need an ending like this. Although the epic collapse may in part be due to individual episodes like this both known and unknown by the fans. This team need straightened out. Whether that is coaching changes, player releases/trades, whatever. This is an embarrassment to the Steelers way.



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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyTue Jan 01, 2019 3:37 am

So then this team will play like dogshit without Brown. Just like they did without Troy Polamalu and Aaron Smith. What does it matter though, cause these geniuses can't even reach the playoffs with all the talent they have.

Would be nice if they could hear my disgust.

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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 7:38 am

Good 'ole Tim Benz is not happy.

https://triblive.com/sports/-topstories/14460415-74/tim-benz-steelers-art-rooney-ii-needs-to-do-something-big-he

On a semi related note, former players are not happy with each other.

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/timbenz/breakfastwithbenz/14461100-74/tim-benz-even-former-steelers-are-fighting-with-each-other
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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 8:12 am

@jak341 wrote:
Good 'ole Tim Benz is not happy.

https://triblive.com/sports/-topstories/14460415-74/tim-benz-steelers-art-rooney-ii-needs-to-do-something-big-he

On a semi related note, former players are not happy with each other.

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/timbenz/breakfastwithbenz/14461100-74/tim-benz-even-former-steelers-are-fighting-with-each-other

I can't disagree with either article. It all happened just like they said. Tomlin admitted to a blown call because he was preoccupied. Brown was on Facebook for everyone to see. We all saw him argue with Fichtner and knock gator aide jugs over.We read about his pending lawsuit for throwing furniture off of his balcony almost hitting a toddler.
Times are changing. Chuck Noll kept Mean Joe playing past his prime out of respect. They cut Troy because they saw him as not useful anymore. No respect there. This has become a "what have you done for us lately" league. So what has Brown done for us lately. A lot of nice catches creating excitement. A lot of off and on field tantrums creating more drama than we need.

I have a couple questions for any Cap experts. Why if we trade him do we take a cap hit? Doesn't the team we trade to absorb his Cap number? I'm not sure how all of this works. I guess I'll have to read up on ti.
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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 10:17 am

On today's morning show, Cam Heyward was on to give his thoughts. A few interesting things:
  • The team wasn't informed of the AB situation until the pregame meeting on Sunday. The team thought he was injured, and was told this by the coaching staff. Cam was straight forward and said that was unacceptable that the team wasn't informed beforehand that AB's absence was disciplinary. Cam said he still doesn't know all the specifics, but reached out to AB publically on the radio for him to call Cam.
  • About the AB situation, Cam said AB has issues far beyond what the public knows. Said there is definitely a rift between AB and the Steelers and hopes it gets fixed soon. However, if AB doesn't want to play here, the situation needs to be fixed.
  • Related to playing here, Cam hinted there were other members of the 53 who really don't want to play here. Didn't give specifics.
  • Tomlin has the full backing of Cam, but Cam acknowledged changes need to be made.
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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 10:28 am

I feel like the flood gates of player discontent opened up with how the Steelers managed the Bell contract situation from a year ago. Since then it seems to be one shitshow after the next and Tomlin has ZERO control of these individuals. We are going to lose Munchak before we know it...

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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 11:35 am

@jak341 wrote:
Good 'ole Tim Benz is not happy.

https://triblive.com/sports/-topstories/14460415-74/tim-benz-steelers-art-rooney-ii-needs-to-do-something-big-he

Interesting. I read the Benz article last night, and I see he updated it. Not to add something, but to remove something.

Not sure if it was him or an editor, but what got removed is some of his biting criticism of Rooney. What he said is that Art doesn't care about the team the way Dan did. Heavily paraphrasing here ... For Dan, Steelers football was life; for Art, it's just something he owns, nothing but a business, so losing doesn't bother Art the way it did Dan.

Benz said essentially the same thing about the difference between Art and Dan that I did earlier in this thread. Although Benz said the difference is why Art won't fire Tomlin, whereas I said the difference is why I'm concerned about Tomlin getting fired.

Benz usually doesn't pull punches, so I'm disappointed his heavy criticism of Art was removed. He wasn't wrong. I guess he (or the editor) got a little too much heat.

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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 12:52 pm

@Wallace108 wrote:
@jak341 wrote:
Good 'ole Tim Benz is not happy.

https://triblive.com/sports/-topstories/14460415-74/tim-benz-steelers-art-rooney-ii-needs-to-do-something-big-he

Interesting. I read the Benz article last night, and I see he updated it. Not to add something, but to remove something.

Not sure if it was him or an editor, but what got removed is some of his biting criticism of Rooney. What he said is that Art doesn't care about the team the way Dan did. Heavily paraphrasing here ... For Dan, Steelers football was life; for Art, it's just something he owns, nothing but a business, so losing doesn't bother Art the way it did Dan.

Benz said essentially the same thing about the difference between Art and Dan that I did earlier in this thread. Although Benz said the difference is why Art won't fire Tomlin, whereas I said the difference is why I'm concerned about Tomlin getting fired.

Benz usually doesn't pull punches, so I'm disappointed his heavy criticism of Art was removed. He wasn't wrong. I guess he (or the editor) got a little too much heat.

If you're going to take aim at the king, you best not miss. Perhaps Benz or his editor thought of those words.
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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 3:02 pm

its amazing how tomlin is going to be able to use the AB situation to take the heat off him
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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 3:34 pm

@muncher wrote:
its amazing how tomlin is going to be able to use the AB situation to take the heat off him

As much as some of us think it should happen, it won't. It never was. Now, if Ben decides to call it a career, it may be a different story.
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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 3:41 pm

@jak341 wrote:
@muncher wrote:
its amazing how tomlin is going to be able to use the AB situation to take the heat off him

As much as some of us think it should happen, it won't. It never was. Now, if Ben decides to call it a career, it may be a different story.


i know it. ive been saying for years. tomlin says the same stupid stuff at the end of every season an does nothing to change it the next season.
im sure a scapegoat or two will be fired but that wont change a thing with the leadership, attitude or culture issues. and that whats holding this team back
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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 3:52 pm

What's been lost for the past few years with this organization, has been everything that has set us apart for years:

RESPECT, HONOR, TEAMWORK, TRADITION, PRIDE, WORK ETHIC, LEADERSHIP

I don't see those attributes across management or the players and I miss it.

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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 4:12 pm

@Drizztbob wrote:
What's been lost for the past few years with this organization, has been everything that has set us apart for years:

RESPECT, HONOR, TEAMWORK, TRADITION, PRIDE, WORK ETHIC, LEADERSHIP

I don't see those attributes across management or the players and I miss it.  

The only way you come back from this is to clean house. I don't see any other way. With AB publicly mocking Tomlin, and by default the team, where do you go?

Tomlin suddenly can't become a disciplinarian. The players will laugh if he tries that. The years of "the standard is the standard" and all of the clichés have caught up to the team. This has been a slow burning fire that has finally gotten out of control.
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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 4:30 pm

The shit show this team has become if I was the owner I'd be a whisker away from blowing it all up and starting over.

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PostSubject: Re: It's Time To Move On From Tomlin   It's Time To Move On From Tomlin - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 02, 2019 6:00 pm

@Drizztbob said it best. All those important attributes are missing. But is it just the Steelers? Not that it matters since it’s really all we care about. But, imho, the NFL as a whole has become a shit show the last few years.

I really hope we don’t lose AB, but if he does have issues, like Cam stated, how is it going to turn around in time for the next season?

I really hate to admit it, but I’m beginning to lose interest in pro ball, and I’ve been a Steeler fan for a long, long time.

*sigh*.

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