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muncher



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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 05, 2019 10:04 am

@solardave wrote:
@muncher wrote:
okay, how has your HC done in the playoffs with players HE scouted, drafted and coached up compared to the players that were scouted, drafted and coached up by cowher?

im rooting for this HC to continue to fail so this organization can move on and i can be proud to call myself a steelers fan again. the last few years have be embarrassing

It's simple. If your a fan only when we have "your coach" you are not a true fan. Fair weather is the term used.
If you are serious about rooting for the Steelers to loose then maybe you need to look for another team. One that has a HC you like.

actually it is simple.
there different degrees and types of fans. some more knowledgeable than others. some that root for the team regardless of how things are going. some understand the game more than others. some that have recently become fans and some that have been around several decades. some that know what is working and what isnt. some are happy with never being below .500, some like to say we only have had 3 coaches in 50 years.etc etc etc
i am a fan of any HC that has the team playing to their ability. as long as tomlin continues to waste valuable years with a loaded roster, i will continue to call him out. why?, because i am a fan of the steelers, not a fan of the HC
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solardave

solardave

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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 05, 2019 12:32 pm

@muncher wrote:
@solardave wrote:
@muncher wrote:
okay, how has your HC done in the playoffs with players HE scouted, drafted and coached up compared to the players that were scouted, drafted and coached up by cowher?

im rooting for this HC to continue to fail so this organization can move on and i can be proud to call myself a steelers fan again. the last few years have be embarrassing

It's simple. If your a fan only when we have "your coach" you are not a true fan. Fair weather is the term used.
If you are serious about rooting for the Steelers to loose then maybe you need to look for another team. One that has a HC you like.

actually it is simple.
there different degrees and types of fans. some more knowledgeable than others. some that root for the team regardless of how things are going. some understand the game more than others. some that have recently become fans and some that have been around several decades. some that know what is working and what isnt. some are happy with never being below .500, some like to say we only have had 3 coaches in 50 years.etc etc etc
i am a fan of any HC that has the team playing to their ability. as long as tomlin continues to waste valuable years with a loaded roster, i will continue to call him out. why?, because i am a fan of the steelers, not a fan of the HC

Wrong. There are 2 types of fans.
1) Loyal.
2) Fair weather.

PERIOD!

The variables you mention like being more knowledgeable can come from either fan but a true fan may and probably will bitch about the HC when we're loosing but doesn't wish the team tanks so they'll get rid of the coach they dislike.
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nine vegetable



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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 05, 2019 1:33 pm

@solardave wrote:
@muncher wrote:
@solardave wrote:
@muncher wrote:
okay, how has your HC done in the playoffs with players HE scouted, drafted and coached up compared to the players that were scouted, drafted and coached up by cowher?

im rooting for this HC to continue to fail so this organization can move on and i can be proud to call myself a steelers fan again. the last few years have be embarrassing

It's simple. If your a fan only when we have "your coach" you are not a true fan. Fair weather is the term used.
If you are serious about rooting for the Steelers to loose then maybe you need to look for another team. One that has a HC you like.

actually it is simple.
there different degrees and types of fans. some more knowledgeable than others. some that root for the team regardless of how things are going. some understand the game more than others. some that have recently become fans and some that have been around several decades. some that know what is working and what isnt. some are happy with never being below .500, some like to say we only have had 3 coaches in 50 years.etc etc etc
i am a fan of any HC that has the team playing to their ability. as long as tomlin continues to waste valuable years with a loaded roster, i will continue to call him out. why?, because i am a fan of the steelers, not a fan of the HC

Wrong. There are 2 types of fans.
1) Loyal.
2) Fair weather.

PERIOD!

The variables you mention like being more knowledgeable can come from either fan but a true fan may and probably will bitch about the HC when we're loosing but doesn't wish the team tanks so they'll get rid of the coach they dislike.


Very simple. If you root for our team to lose you are NOT a fan.

If you "give up on the team" when things are going poorly, you are a "fair weather" fan.

If you support your team, win or lose, through thick and thin - you are a LOYAL fan.
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solardave

solardave

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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 05, 2019 1:47 pm

@nine vegetable wrote:
@solardave wrote:
@muncher wrote:
@solardave wrote:
@muncher wrote:
okay, how has your HC done in the playoffs with players HE scouted, drafted and coached up compared to the players that were scouted, drafted and coached up by cowher?

im rooting for this HC to continue to fail so this organization can move on and i can be proud to call myself a steelers fan again. the last few years have be embarrassing

It's simple. If your a fan only when we have "your coach" you are not a true fan. Fair weather is the term used.
If you are serious about rooting for the Steelers to loose then maybe you need to look for another team. One that has a HC you like.

actually it is simple.
there different degrees and types of fans. some more knowledgeable than others. some that root for the team regardless of how things are going. some understand the game more than others. some that have recently become fans and some that have been around several decades. some that know what is working and what isnt. some are happy with never being below .500, some like to say we only have had 3 coaches in 50 years.etc etc etc
i am a fan of any HC that has the team playing to their ability. as long as tomlin continues to waste valuable years with a loaded roster, i will continue to call him out. why?, because i am a fan of the steelers, not a fan of the HC

Wrong. There are 2 types of fans.
1) Loyal.
2) Fair weather.

PERIOD!

The variables you mention like being more knowledgeable can come from either fan but a true fan may and probably will bitch about the HC when we're loosing but doesn't wish the team tanks so they'll get rid of the coach they dislike.


Very simple.  If you root for our team to lose you are NOT a fan.

If you "give up on the team" when things are going poorly, you are a "fair weather" fan.

If you support your team, win or lose, through thick and thin - you are a LOYAL fan.

Where's the high five emoji? Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 469886443
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muncher



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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 05, 2019 4:43 pm



those are your definitions of your fandom, not mine.
ill still choose not to stick my head in the sand and say things are fine just the way they are. i can see things need to change and i will voice that until they do....................for the better of the team, not for the better of your HC

you guys should get together and have an above .500 party
maybe make your own loyalty trophy made out of tomlin cliches
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nine vegetable



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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 05, 2019 10:34 pm

Solar and I are fans of our team through the highs and the lows. Nobody is celebrating mediocre, you are just trying to justify being in favor of tanking.

I'll paraphrase from earlier: LOYAL fans support their team, win or lose.

NO loyal fan roots for losses.
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solardave

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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 2:11 am

@muncher wrote:


those are your definitions of your fandom, not mine.
ill still choose not to stick my head in the sand and say things are fine just the way they are. i can see things need to change and i will voice that until they do....................for the better of the team, not for the better of your HC

you guys should get together and have an above .500 party
maybe make your own loyalty trophy made out of tomlin cliches

I get it. Since we don't agree with you we're sticking our heads in the sand. I'll speak for me. I'm not good with a .500 season. If you go back and look at some of my posts you will see that more than once I said Tomlin needs to go. Because I'm not obsessed with that and if Tomlin tanks this team next year it won't be because I wished it would happen.
Here's a challenge for you. Go back and pull up one single post of mine where I said or indicated that things are fine just the way they are. I'll save you the time. You won't find one so I'd appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth.
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muncher



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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 10:38 am

@solardave wrote:
@muncher wrote:


those are your definitions of your fandom, not mine.
ill still choose not to stick my head in the sand and say things are fine just the way they are. i can see things need to change and i will voice that until they do....................for the better of the team, not for the better of your HC

you guys should get together and have an above .500 party
maybe make your own loyalty trophy made out of tomlin cliches

I get it. Since we don't agree with you we're sticking our heads in the sand. I'll speak for me. I'm not good with a .500 season. If you go back and look at some of my posts you will see that more than once I said Tomlin needs to go. Because I'm not obsessed with that and if Tomlin tanks this team next year it won't be because I wished it would happen.
Here's a challenge for you. Go back and pull up one single post of mine  where I said or indicated that things are fine just the way they are. I'll save you the time. You won't find one so I'd appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth.

yet your words on what makes a fan 'real, loyal or true' im suppose to agree with?...................pot, meet kettle..................high five
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Wallace108

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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 12:33 pm

I believe there's no true way to be a fan. Being a fan is a personal experience, so everyone can define it however they want.

I do want to weigh in on this though ...

@muncher wrote:
BTW, this only proves my point that tomlin won with cowhers players................hell, cowhers players are saying it.....lol

First, Tomlin has won more with Cowher's players than Cowher won with Cowher's players.

Second, there's no such thing as Cowher's players or Tomlin's players. Neither coach has/had that kind of control. Here's a look at how the Steelers draft ...

http://sportsblogs.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers-steelers-blog/2014/05/07/Cowher-on-How-Steelers-Draft.html

A few of the highlights from the article ...

Quote :
*But if push came to shove, Noll had the ultimate authority. It has not been that way under Bill Cowher and Mike Tomlin. The Steelers did not cede total authority over the draft to either.

*When I talked to Bill Cowher last week, he did tell me this, “If the head coach doesn’t want the guy, they’re not going to take him.” So the coach must at least sign off on each draft pick or they will not draft him.

The best example of this process was in 2004, when Cowher wanted to draft lineman Sean Andrews. Dan Rooney overrode him, and they drafted Ben.

So if the coach doesn't have that much control over the draft, why have we seen a noticeable drop in talent under Tomlin? I'm going to oversimplify this, but here's several reasons ...

1. It's easier to get better talent when you draft higher. From 1998-2000, they finished 7-9, 6-10, and 9-7. In 2003 they finished 6-10. Losing increases the odds of better talent. If not for a 6-10 season in 2003, they wouldn't have been in the position to draft Ben. Tomlin has never had a losing season, so the team has been in a worse position in drafting elite talent. To a point, he's been a victim of his own success.

2. We can't ignore the loss of Dan Rooney. He was a smart football guy and was heavily involved in the process. Art II is not Dan, and we're seeing that fact not only in the draft, but also in all areas of how the team is run. No matter who the Steelers have as coach, that fact doesn't change.

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muncher



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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 2:17 pm

yea, im not gonna buy it unless you are looking for a franchise qb
if drafting early meant those teams got all the best players, the browns, lions, bills, bucs, etc etc etc would be super bowl contenders..they are not. ever.
the draft is more than 1 round. plenty of starters in the nfl are not first rounders.
as far as coaches deciding who gets drafted, it is pretty apparent the players drafted under tomlin are athletic projects more than football players. i doubt colbert decided to start drafting that way all on his own.
and i am not arguing that we dont have talent, im arguing that tomlin is wasting what we do have
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Wallace108

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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 2:56 pm

Quote :
if drafting early meant those teams got all the best players, the browns, lions, bills, bucs, etc etc etc would be super bowl contenders..they are not. ever.

If draft position was the only thing that mattered, you'd be correct. But there are other factors, including the people influencing and making the decisions. There's a reason why the Browns got a lot better as soon as Dorsey came aboard. He's making good decisions. But you also have to factor in that they were in a position to take Mayfield. They were in a position to get an elite player and, unlike past years, they have the guy who knew who to pick.

Quote :
the draft is more than 1 round. plenty of starters in the nfl are not first rounders.

Yeah, plenty of stars can be drafted in later rounds, and plenty of first rounders end up being busts. But the odds are way higher of getting an elite player in the first round.

Quote :
as far as coaches deciding who gets drafted, it is pretty apparent the players drafted under tomlin are athletic projects more than football players. i doubt colbert decided to start drafting that way all on his own.

You seem to be putting all the blame on Tomlin and are completely ignoring Art's influence on the team and the decisions that are made. Tomlin didn't want to get rid of Arians, and even said both coordinators would be returning. Then Art undermined him and fired Arians. Tomlin doesn't have as much power as you think he does.


Quote :
and i am not arguing that we dont have talent, im arguing that tomlin is wasting what we do have

No coach can turn Davis into Polamalu. Or Hargrave into Hampton. Or Dupree into Harrison. This team doesn't have near the talent it had under Cowher and Tomlin's early years. And the drop off in talent is because of consistently drafting outside the top 20, and people at the top making the decisions who aren't as smart.

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LambertWardSteel



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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 3:03 pm

Personally I've always liked the way the team has been run in that they are stable at the top and stick with coaches. I think this is conducive to stability and success throughout the organization. Rooney's comments seemed to be a salvo across the Tomlin bow last month. I'm indifferent to the end result, although, I hope we can stay with the same guy...I just want serious contention for Super Bowls. The cheating scum from the north have tied in total SB wins and it's time to retake the lead. While winning records are awesome, so are SBs. It's difficult to judge what is going on internally with the Steelers and the constant distractions the past few years because we don't have enough information as fans. However, someone needs to gain more authority over the players. The circus doesn't so much need a ringmaster that speaks in cliches and promises dancing bears. It needs a ringmaster who also can tame the lions.

In the end I just want what is best for the Steelers and winning. I've been a Steelers fan since elementary school in 1978 (my mom made me a Terrible Towell out of a t-shirt for 78 SB  and in my fury wrapped it around the TV antenna and snapped it right off). The Steelers are a part of my life and being. I will never abandon them. But I have come to detest the NFL; their 'safety rules' and idiotic commissioner. And that the best they can do is keep running the same team out there for the SB every damn year. It has become predictable and flawed in that they can't produce another team to compete. They put a guy in a shark cage behind the line of scrimmage then swoon all over him when he plays to 45 and breaks records of QBs who actually were tackled and were retired by mid 30's. I need a break until March and the new NFL year

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muncher



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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 3:06 pm

we'll just have to disagree then
i seriously doubt rooney is the guy reaching for athletes instead of football players.
i actually think rooney doesnt know much about the game

just seems funny that every year the steelers odds of wining the super bowl are in the top 5-6 seeing that they have no talent

and people at the top making the decisions who aren't as smart............this i agree with. colbert is the same smart, tomlin dumber than cowher and rooney dumber than dad......
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solardave

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PostSubject: Re: Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin   Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 EmptyThu Feb 07, 2019 6:07 am

@LambertWardSteel wrote:
Personally I've always liked the way the team has been run in that they are stable at the top and stick with coaches. I think this is conducive to stability and success throughout the organization. Rooney's comments seemed to be a salvo across the Tomlin bow last month. I'm indifferent to the end result, although, I hope we can stay with the same guy...I just want serious contention for Super Bowls. The cheating scum from the north have tied in total SB wins and it's time to retake the lead. While winning records are awesome, so are SBs. It's difficult to judge what is going on internally with the Steelers and the constant distractions the past few years because we don't have enough information as fans. However, someone needs to gain more authority over the players. The circus doesn't so much need a ringmaster that speaks in cliches and promises dancing bears. It needs a ringmaster who also can tame the lions.

In the end I just want what is best for the Steelers and winning. I've been a Steelers fan since elementary school in 1978 (my mom made me a Terrible Towell out of a t-shirt for 78 SB  and in my fury wrapped it around the TV antenna and snapped it right off). The Steelers are a part of my life and being. I will never abandon them. But I have come to detest the NFL; their 'safety rules' and idiotic commissioner. And that the best they can do is keep running the same team out there for the SB every damn year. It has become predictable and flawed in that they can't produce another team to compete. They put a guy in a shark cage behind the line of scrimmage then swoon all over him when he plays to 45 and breaks records of QBs who actually were tackled and were retired by mid 30's. I need a break until March and the new NFL year

You and Wally hit the nail. None of us know for sure who is calling all the shots. While I'm sure Tomlin has a lot of input I'm just as sure at any given time he can be told to go sit down and think up a fancy speech. I also agree with Wally that Art doesn't care nearly as much about this team as Dan did.
We have more issues than we can count right now but to say it All falls on Tomlin Art not caring scares me a hell of a lot more than Tomlin continuing to coach this team.

It was said that people don't change. Again not true. Tom Caughlin was known to be as strict as they come in Jacksonville. He would fine any player who was late for a meeting. I heard that he said "if you're one minute early,you're late"! He had some success but not enough. He went on to coach the Giants and began to look at his players differently.(his words) He changed the way he interacted with them and won a SB. I hold out hope that Tomlin can make the necessary changes to turn the ship around.

But for me to say that everything is Tomlin's fault (and I don't) would be wrong. Here's my example: it's Tomlin's responsibility to keep his players in check. Who's Tomlin's boss? Isn't his responsibility to keep Tomlin in check. Part of that check IMO is to do something,anything to prove to the fans that you care about winning. Where's the proof that exonerates Art? He and/or Tomlin fired a LBers coach and a RB coach. The latter was doing his job so I think he went to Art and asked to be fired. They chose the old "if it ain't broke" theory and most of us agree it is broke.

I have had those knee jerk reactions after senseless losses calling for Tomlin's head and I do think it's broken. I'm just not for sure about who broke it but I suspect it's shared by the top three so maybe we fire Art,Colbert and Tomlin. Harrison says the blame starts with Tomlin - Page 2 1378315869

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