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effyou515

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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 10:45 pm

Whats REALLY Wrong With Ben Roethlisberger and The Steelers Historically Bad Offense


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6H-DbXV-lk


a good take on ben's play.

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SteelerFreak58

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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 29, 2021 12:00 am

@effyou515 wrote:
Whats REALLY Wrong With Ben Roethlisberger and The Steelers Historically Bad Offense


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6H-DbXV-lk


a good take on ben's play.

More evidence why they should have picked a #1 and #2 Oline draft choice and some competent FA line men. Instead they went cheap bargain-basement and this is exactly what you get. Some of us on here screamed that the day after day two of the draft that this was going to come back and bite them on the ass. It was as clear as day to a few of us and we had plenty of people poo poo about it saying Harris and Freiremuth were much better picks...

How's that working out now?
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Great Randino



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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 29, 2021 2:37 am

Harris and Freiermuth were much better picks.

Few rookie lineman are ready on Day One in the NFL anyway.

What they should have done though is go get a few GOOD linemen in free agency. That's where they made their mistake.
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Stella Nation

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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 29, 2021 3:30 am

And which OL should they have drafted? Here are the PFF grades so far for every OL-man drafted until Dan Moore and as you can see it's a piss poor class just like the previous classes before which is a big concern for the intire NFL. If this tendency continues the next couple of years every team will field a poor OL. Hell, I watch 4 games a week and most teams already have a bad OL, except a few exceptions. It's by far the least talented unit in the whole NFL with the best players becoming older and older. It's says enough that a guy like Trai Turner was good enough to make the pro-bowl 5 years in a row. And the explanation is rather simple, the more athletic players are playing on the DL, whether it's their own choice or the team putting them there. It's probably no coincidence that the Steelers are gambling on some least talented but more athletic OL like Green and Moore and hoping they can develop enough to become a counterpart for the more and more physical gifted DT/Edge players. The traditional OL simply can't get it done anymore against these players. See how hard AV/Pouncey/DeCastro were all struggling the last couple of years while they weren't that old. In the past OL easily could play into their mid 30's at a high level. Now, they were all done at the age of 30.

Anyway, here are the pff grades for this year's class:
#7 Penei Sewell OT 62.0
#13 Rashawn Slater OT 71.3
#14 Alijah Vera-Tucker OG 62.5
#17 Alex Leatherwood OT 34.6
#23 Christian Darrisaw OT no snaps yet
#24 we picked Harris
#39 Teven Jenkins OT back surgery, out for the season
#42 Liam Eichenberg OT 47.4
#45 Walker Little OT no snaps
#46 Jackson Carmon OT 33.4
#48 Aaron Banks OG no snaps
#51 Sam Cosmi OT 72.3
#53 Dillon Radunz OT no snaps
#55 we picked Freiermuth
#62 Josh Myers C 66.3
#63 Creed Humphrey C 70.4
#70 Brady Christensen OT 48.0
#86 Wyatt Davis OG no snaps
#87 we picked Kendrick Green C 55.0
#93 Spencer Brown OT 81.1
#94 Ben Cleveland OG 66.7
#95 Robert Hainsey OT no snaps
#110 James Hudson OT no snaps
#114 Drew Dalman C 69.4
#128 we picked Dan Moore OT 60.5

Yes, I know it's still early but only one (Spencer Brown at 93) who's really good and a couple above average (Slater, Cosmi and Humphrey). And it's probably no coincidence most of them profit of playing with a young elite mobile QB. Brown has Josh Allen, Slater has Herbert and Humphrey Mahomes. Cosmi is the lone exception playing WFT (and even then, Taylor Heinicke is young and mobile as well, not elite of course).

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solardave

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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 29, 2021 7:54 am

I won't say the bulk of the problem is on Canada because it isn't. The Oline is terrible and that falls on the FO but I will say this.Throwing a screen to your RB behind the LOS when it's 4th and 10 or whatever it was is JUST PLAIN stupid. Almost as STUPID as Tomlin's reference to firearms. There is plenty of blame to go around and I don't see it getting any better this year. To me it doesn't matter if Ben doesn't have it anymore.
I don't know of any QB on our roster who can salvage the season. Sure Dobbs is mobile but how long before defenses figure out that he has 1.2 seconds before he takes off up field?
Lamar Jackson is a rare QB who can run and now we're seeing the conversion to pocket passer first because you can only do what he's done for so long before someone cleans your clock.
Injuries on defense compound our struggles so sit back and enjoy the SHITSHOW .
Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 3067078418 Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 1797695198

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SteelerFreak58

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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 29, 2021 11:19 am

@Great Randino wrote:
Harris and Freiermuth were much better picks.

Few rookie lineman are ready on Day One in the NFL anyway.

What they should have done though is go get a few GOOD linemen in free agency.  That's where they made their mistake.

And again how's that working out for the team? They went cheap on the Oline and kept Chuks Okarafor around when he played pretty shitty last year. They banked on Dotson growing and Banner coming back from an injury with no evidence of him being able to play at a high level. They banked on a #3 and #4 pick working out from day one.

They went out and got Finney back who didn't do well anywhere. Haeg... lol...

The only pick of note in FA was Turner and he had all kinds of question marks...

This isn't a surprise to some of us. We saw this coming right after the draft. We HOPED they would make some moves in FA to address the glaring weaknesses but they didn't. They threw together a patchwork Oline to try to protect an old veteran QB that is immobile and has about 1.5 seconds to pass a ball before someone is on him.

Najee is going to look like a bust because the Oline is full blow hot on fire garbage. Chuks Okarafor is getting eaten for breakfast on the right side, Moore that poor kid is getting hammered on the left, and Green is trying his best but could have used a year to acclimate and get NFL strong. Turner has ZERO push off the line same issue as last year. Dotson is one of the only semi competent linemen this year from what I have seen its hard to judge when the rest of the Oline isn't getting their jobs done.
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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 29, 2021 11:29 am

A good break down...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/platform/amp/2021/9/29/22698114/the-one-part-of-ben-roethlisbergers-game-that-the-pittsburgh-steelers-need-to-come-back-film-room
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effyou515

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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 29, 2021 4:32 pm

@Stella Nation wrote:
And which OL should they have drafted? Here are the PFF grades so far for every OL-man drafted until Dan Moore and as you can see it's a piss poor class just like the previous classes before which is a big concern for the intire NFL. If this tendency continues the next couple of years every team will field a poor OL. Hell, I watch 4 games a week and most teams already have a bad OL, except a few exceptions. It's by far the least talented unit in the whole NFL with the best players becoming older and older. It's says enough that a guy like Trai Turner was good enough to make the pro-bowl 5 years in a row. And the explanation is rather simple, the more athletic players are playing on the DL, whether it's their own choice or the team putting them there. It's probably no coincidence that the Steelers are gambling on some least talented but more athletic OL like Green and Moore and hoping they can develop enough to become a counterpart for the more and more physical gifted DT/Edge players. The traditional OL simply can't get it done anymore against these players. See how hard AV/Pouncey/DeCastro were all struggling the last couple of years while they weren't that old. In the past OL easily could play into their mid 30's at a high level. Now, they were all done at the age of 30.

Anyway, here are the pff grades for this year's class:
#7 Penei Sewell OT 62.0
#13 Rashawn Slater OT 71.3
#14 Alijah Vera-Tucker OG 62.5
#17 Alex Leatherwood OT 34.6
#23 Christian Darrisaw OT no snaps yet
#24 we picked Harris
#39 Teven Jenkins OT back surgery, out for the season
#42 Liam Eichenberg OT 47.4
#45 Walker Little OT no snaps
#46 Jackson Carmon OT 33.4
#48 Aaron Banks OG no snaps
#51 Sam Cosmi OT 72.3
#53 Dillon Radunz OT no snaps
#55 we picked Freiermuth
#62 Josh Myers C 66.3
#63 Creed Humphrey C 70.4
#70 Brady Christensen OT 48.0
#86 Wyatt Davis OG no snaps
#87 we picked Kendrick Green C 55.0
#93 Spencer Brown OT 81.1
#94 Ben Cleveland OG 66.7
#95 Robert Hainsey OT no snaps
#110 James Hudson OT no snaps
#114 Drew Dalman C 69.4
#128 we picked Dan Moore OT 60.5

Yes, I know it's still early but only one (Spencer Brown at 93) who's really good and a couple above average (Slater, Cosmi and Humphrey). And it's probably no coincidence most of them profit of playing with a young elite mobile QB. Brown has Josh Allen, Slater has Herbert and Humphrey Mahomes. Cosmi is the lone exception playing WFT (and even then, Taylor Heinicke is young and mobile as well, not elite of course).

just reinforce my imho that the Steelers were right to pick Harris and Freiermuth.

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Great Randino



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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 29, 2021 5:15 pm

I will stand behind the Harris and Freiermuth picks. Getting the best college running back, and perhaps the 2nd best TE, will pay dividends - even if it isn't this year.

I think we all agree that the O line should have been addressed more aggressively - we just disagree on the best method to get there. I think we should have spent $ in free agency - at least another $15M on the line. Others think we should have drafted the best available lineman with our 1st pick.

SolarDave - agree completely regarding Dobbs. There is NO savior. But a mobile QB would give us more of a chance than an immobile QB. And we have 3 immobile QB's on the roster now.
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Master_Of_Puppets

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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 29, 2021 8:03 pm

be careful using PFF grades to prove a point. its not exactly controlled environment data. there are too many variables to reach an accurate conclusion. have all these linemen faced the same level of competition ? are they all coached by the same coach ? are they all playing beside the same team mates ?
mathew stafford for a decade looked like an average qb at best . changes environment and so far looks like an MVP candidate and deserved  being a 1st round draft pick..

the list also doesnt tell you darrisaw is on IR and aaron banks missed most of preseason with an injury. walker little opted out for covid so it is no surprise he isnt starting. jackson carmon was horrible at the senior bowl, how he got picked that early is beyond me.

sewell was said to be generational talent by some. so whats up with that sad PFF grade ? joey bosa helped crush his grade. has slatter or any other rookie went against bosa ?

Quote :
The 20-year-old No. 7 pick of April's draft became the youngest player in NFL history to start a game at left tackle after working exclusively at right tackle throughout the preseason.


Quote :
Nick Bosa beat Penei Sewell with an inside pass rush on Sewell's first pass-block snap of the game, and he drove the rookie offensive tackle back into quarterback Jared Goff's lap for a sack another time.

But Bosa, one of the best defensive ends in the NFL, left Sunday's season opener saying what a lot of people were thinking — that Sewell looked more natural playing left tackle in his Detroit Lions debut than he did playing right tackle all preseason.
"He’s going to be good," Bosa told reporters after the game. "He’s more comfortable on the left. I could tell. The tape I saw on the right was ... I told him after the game, he’s better on the left and he’s more comfortable on the left. He’s going to be a solid player, for sure."

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Stella Nation

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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 7:24 am

Oh, I'm not a big PFF fan myself, especially for evaluating players individually. But I believe it's useful for evaluating a lot of players of the same unit. I mean, when you take 25 OL and you see most of them have a low grade, you know that unit as a whole has a problem. They can't all play in a bad environment. And when you look at the 16 OL picked in the top 100 of the 2020 class, which are all starters now, except for Isaiah Wilson (lol at the Titans), you can see that the best grade this season with one year under their belt is only 67.2. And especially the interior is a problem with only one of the 5 players qualified above 60. And what's more important, those numbers reflect with what I see on the field myself. After 3 weeks we already have 2 players (Chandler Jones and Myles Garrett) who each had 5 sacks in one game and they weren't playing the Steelers. Even good teams like the Ravens and the Chiefs have big problems. Jackson and Mahomes have the ability to escape pressure and make something happen, but as soon as they play great defenses they get in trouble too. Ravens can't win play-off games and Mahomes got absolutely trashed in the SB because his OL got annihilated.

And you're right about Sewell too, I know his story. Unbelievable they've made him play RT all preseason. And let's hope he really will become an exceptional player. But if every draft only produces 3 to 5 great/good/above average OL like the last years that's hardly enough for 10 teams, let alone 32. But coaches of good college teams don't care about their development anymore, because they now all want mobile QB's who can easily escape pressure at the collegiate level anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 7:31 am

And for those not familiar with PFF, elite players like TJ Watt and Cam Heyward are getting grades between 90 and 95. Great players in the mold of Tuitt usually have a grade of 85. Claypool was 75 last year.
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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyThu Sep 30, 2021 11:37 am

Listened to the post game show on SNR with Stan Savran and Charlie Batch. It was interesting hearing from two guys who attended the game in person. Savran mentioned that on most pass plays, the WRs were not getting open ... meaning Ben had nowhere to throw the ball. And to think there were some throws he tried to jam it into a fully covered receivers. There were several pass attempts that Ben was either hit or sacked that he held the ball for far longer than 2.5 seconds. I don't know if it's poor play calling, poor WR play, or poor coaching of the receivers.

Anyone having to put up with my posts at the end of last season will be familiar with my questioning if their problems were strategic (Fitchner) or tactical (WRs). Fitchner was dumped like a pile of garbage, maybe for good reason. But we're seeing very familiar results on the field to start this season. So is it the WRs? They've been placed on a pedestal due to their talent, but that doesn't mean they are good. It seems Claypool was doubled for a good part of the day and no one else was able to step up. And just to throw this out there: Ebron has more drops (2) than receptions (1).

So here's my list of gripes:

  • Throwing a go pattern on 3rd down sucks. Unless you see something that says the CB is sitting on the sticks and the WR will be uncovered, you're basically throwing a 50/50 ball at best. It's a great way to end a drive and the Steelers did exactly that go 3 and out to start the game.
  • From above: WRs not getting open on most pass plays. Ike Hilliard should be on the hot seat given drops, missed routes and now hearing his guys aren't getting open. I thought he was a great player, but maybe he's not a great coach???
  • 4th & 10 from the 11 and they throw that check down. I don't buy they ran out of plays, that's Tomlin covering for either a shit play call (Canada) or a bad read (Ben). This was not a screen play, because none of the receivers were blocking. After watching that play several times, I think Ben saw the early blitz read and just dumped it off. Unfortunately, he was fooled. 3 guys initially rushed and a 4th appeared to be coming late.
  • The same thing as last year: play calling/execution is not getting teams to back off. There's too many defenders in or close to the box. Underneath throws and run plays will not effectively move the ball down the field.
  • Even Boz missed a kick, so it was one of those days.


Watching this game was punishment, which I endured till the end. Honestly, I didn't see the Steelers quit, although ending the game with 3 straight drops does help that argument. No, I thought the players fought throughout the game, but what they had wasn't good enough.

I see article suggesting it's not time to panic because it's only 3 games into the season. However, the Bills game was the only game in the last 8 that they played well and even then it was defense and special teams. It's not a panic, but fans are rightfully concerned this team doesn't look like a competitor these days.

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solardave

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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyFri Oct 01, 2021 4:48 am

The poor route running is a carry over from last year and Hilliard hasn't fixed that problem. Maybe he's one and done and next year they hire Hines to coach WRs.
When they hired Canada I had mixed emotions based on his work history. He never seemed to stay more than 3 years anywhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Canada


I'm not ready to throw him under the bus because our line to me is the bigger issue however if there is no improvement this year I don't see why we keep him going forward.
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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyFri Oct 01, 2021 2:24 pm

blaming canada at this point would be like blaming a roofer for not fixing your leaking roof, when all you gave him to repair it is duct tape and cardboard.

so how many coordinators and assistant coaches does tomlin get to throw under the bus until people start looking in his direction ? Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 1401235891

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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptyFri Oct 01, 2021 4:21 pm

People calling for Mason Rudolph aren't going to be happy when he takes the field. Way too slow and will get crushed. The need for a mobile QB is huge - and I think that's going to be a continuous trend across the league. The only one we have on the roster is Dobbs. No, he won't turn the Steelers season around, but at least we may be able to move the chains a little more.

Ben needs to go on IR, cash in his $25M and retire. Steelers need to figure out the rest of their QB room this season, and that's not going to happen as long as Ben keeps slogging around.

MoP makes a good point about Canada. I saw a few well-designed plays, motions and misdirection, completely blown up by poor execution. Canada can't block for the line.

The 4th and 10 - absolutely horrible. No way do I believe the intent was to dumb it to Najee. I think Ben panicked. He had time to throw into the end zone and didn't do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptySat Oct 02, 2021 5:41 am

The 2 main issues on offense are #1 the line is really bad. #2 The WRs are not getting any separation. The question is if we can possibly fix these 2 this year can Ben be productive or are apparent wrong routes actually Ben making bad throws. At times it's hard to tell and I think he deserves some blame for not being on the same page. Do we have a QB on this roster who can avoid the rush and complete passes? I for one am pretty sure it's not Rudolph because he's never shown that he is mobile or illusive.
I'm not close to being sold on Haskins so that leaves Dobbs who it's obvious the FO is not sold on him. Soooo I'm of the opinion we're SOL this year unless Ben gets time and Najee has a hole or two to run through. Harris has shown that he can catch and make people miss in the open field. The other factor is the WRs need to get open and CATCH THE DAMN BALL. I'd like to see Muuuth have a big game against the packers. One thing that would help Ben would be a Heath style security blanket and we know Ebron ain't gettin' done.
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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptySat Oct 02, 2021 12:55 pm

Ebron is cooked. He's really just not very good. To me Freiermuth has already surpassed him, the Steelers just haven't figured that out yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Bungles @ Steelers   Bungles @ Steelers - Page 3 EmptySun Oct 03, 2021 6:38 am

@Great Randino wrote:
Ebron is cooked.  He's really just not very good.  To me Freiermuth has already surpassed him, the Steelers just haven't figured that out yet.

Yeah I wasn't an Ebron fan before he got here and that hasn't changed.
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